Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Tele

Debbie's Inspiring Path Through the Challenges of IVF

• Tele

Share episode

Send us a text

Imagine grappling with the emotional turmoil of infertility while balancing faith and science. That's exactly what our guest Debbie helps us navigate in this enlightening episode. She shares her invaluable perspective, particularly focusing on the Christian and Afro-Caribbean communities, where medical interventions like IVF can often be met with hesitation. Debbie passionately argues that seeking medical help for infertility isn't a sign of weak faith but an act of courageous trust. She beautifully bridges the gap between faith and science, encouraging a thoughtful acceptance of how they can complement each other in the journey towards parenthood.

We also take you on the emotional roller coaster that is the IVF process, highlighting both the agony and resilience required. From NHS criteria for seeking help to the ups and downs of tests and evaluations, we share personal stories that underscore the mental and physical challenges faced. There's no sugar-coating the disappointment and self-doubt that often come with infertility, but through candid conversation, we aim to shed light on the crucial role of online support communities. These networks provide not only information but also a sense of solidarity for those navigating these tumultuous waters.

As the episode unfolds, we address the heartache of unsuccessful IVF attempts and the grief of miscarriages. It's a journey fraught with decisions and immense emotional strain, where hope and expectations must be managed carefully. Through poignant personal accounts, we highlight the necessity of a robust support system and the importance of finding healing in everyday moments. Whether it's preconception health or trusting medical professionals early on, our discussion champions education and awareness, reminding listeners that seeking help is a sign of strength and determination in building a family.

Support the show

Speaker 2:

Thank you for listening in again today. Um, today I've got my friend with us. Debbie is back in the house and Debbie is going to have another good chat with us. The last episode we had with Debbie with us was about infertility, and today we're going to go deeper into that topic and this time we're talking more about IVF. I'm just going to ask Debbie to introduce herself briefly and then we'll take it from there. So, debbie, say hello to everybody.

Speaker 3:

Hello everyone. I'm happy to be here again to dive in into the interesting topic. Yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, debbie, for always accepting our invitation to come on the podcast. So we're just going to go straight into it and we're talking. Going to go straight into it and, um, we're talking about IVF the last time you were here, you told us about your infertility journey yeah, and you talked on IVF just briefly, so we wanted to dive more into the topic of IVF.

Speaker 2:

But, um, before we dive into and we're going to hear more about your own personal journey in relation to IVF and how you went through that, but before we go into that in depth, I just wanted to ask a question. There are various perspectives in the Christian community about IVF. What's your take on IVF from the Christian perspective?

Speaker 3:

Yes, thank you for that question. You're right, I think in our community I'll go one step further in the Afro-Caribbean community and the Christian community, there's this, anything that has to do with intervention. There is this sort of pushback that you have to pray, you have to believe God and you have to keep believing God and praying and don't have any intervention, as if God is in the auto of those knowledge so we, we see external intervention as lack of faith and I think why.

Speaker 3:

Faith is good and I know the bible says faith without works is dead, so the Christian perspective doesn't. I don't know if it's the Christian perspective, but I know from the Afro-Caribbean perspective. Our cultural influence is that when someone is suffering you just have to keep believing. Yeah, and any sort of deviation from that shows a lack of faith.

Speaker 3:

So I think that's where we find this divide, this hesitation in people and in couples seeking help, because on one hand they know there is a problem, on the other hand they don't know how to go about it, because the church environment doesn't really talk about it.

Speaker 3:

And during miracles. I remember those days when there were miracle sessions. You would have prayers for people who are waiting for God, for the fruit of the womb, and women would go. You know, everyone would go out. I never used to go out because, you know, I don't want my situation to be a public discussion, so it was a private thing for me. Not that I didn't like that.

Speaker 3:

What they were doing was wrong, but, on the other hand, I think I think again, there is no information around how that people should go and seek help. Perhaps, maybe because, maybe because the leadership doesn't really know and that's how they're operating from. But I think, as individuals, you should take responsibility for your own uh situation and you should find, um, help, yes, you should find help, help, yes, you should find help. Yeah, when you need it. You should find how, how to, especially in the community in which, in which we live in, there is so much resources, and you should take responsibility why you are trusting god to make it work. Uh, happen, and I don't want to use the word natural. It was natural. It's like ivf is a natural. Any.

Speaker 3:

The bible says all good and perfect gifts comes from above. Yeah, it's a good thing. God wants to populate it. God has given us wisdom. God has given medical science wisdom. There's so many things and I don't know why we separate that from every other things that we are. We're ready to, you know, believe science in various other things, but when it comes to ivf or seeking intervention, we push back, which is bizarre in my opinion. So I think we have to move away from when we, when couples seek help, seeing it as lack of faith. It is, it's actually a step of faith to go that further. That's's what I would say.

Speaker 2:

So I'm going to ask you this question that I saw on the internet Is IVF a biblical way to have a baby? Yes, it is.

Speaker 3:

Why would it not be? What makes it unbiblical? The Bible didn't give us any prescription for having children. It said to you know, know, a man should meet his wife and they should be one flesh and say go ye and populate the world. He didn't say how. He didn't say go ye.

Speaker 3:

I mean, if you want to go any step deeper, I always say this if you have ever sought intervention for any medical issue, having a child, if you've been diagnosed with infertility, is a medical condition. Why do you separate it? If you've ever taken um painkillers for a headache, why didn't you just wait? Naturally, I mean, there are so many christians. We are, we are in the world, so we suffer from sickness because we're in a fallen world. We suffer from, from diseases, but we trust God that we go to the hospitals. We are often admitted. I mean, a lot of Christians have hyperpressure, diabetes you name it cancer and God works through those medical processes.

Speaker 3:

So, the way I see it, the body is a dynamic machine. Things can go wrong. Like your car. If something goes wrong, you're not just going to say I'm going to pray for it to start working. You're going to be a mechanic, you're going to seek intervention, if you can do that for your car, why can't you do that for your body? You need your body to work 100%. So when your body isn't doing what it should do, you seek help. And that's how I see it with IVF. Your body is meant to do something and it hasn't done it. That means there is a fault, so you seek help to get it sorted, while you believe in God that the process would work. That's how I see it. So we can not. Everything is going to be in the Bible, not everything is going to be black and white Not everything is even in the Bible, exactly so.

Speaker 3:

But God we cannot. Just I want to say we can't. God walks in mysterious ways. God is bigger than this book, he said. I've exalted my word above my name, but we know in part. We actually haven't explored who God is in its entirety. God is bigger than anything you've ever imagined, so God, that than anything we've ever imagined, so God. That's why we have to work with the Holy Spirit. We have to because when you work with the Holy Spirit in that particular situation, he will actually lead you to the solution that you should seek. So, in terms of there's no one size fitter for anybody, for every couple. There is none. Each couple is different.

Speaker 3:

My situation I was nothing that was found, it was unexplained. And so this is where, something that is unexplained, how do you fix it? If I was told I suffered from, if I had endometriosis or I had ovulation or anything like that? Or my husband and I, nothing, everything was fine, we were fine, and month, one month, two, year, one year, two didn't happen. Eight years didn't happen. So, and if we had carried on waiting, maybe we would never have had children, because the reality is that God made our bodies as women and we have an expiry date and that's it. Maybe I'll ask God when I see.

Speaker 2:

Why was there? We need to blame Eve for all these problems?

Speaker 3:

Maybe yeah because it caused the fall of man and we had to suffer. You know the consequences of sin. But when a woman is born, you're born with all the eggs you would need and I think at a certain age you no longer produce eggs. You no longer produce eggs. So if you are in your mid-35s, your eggs deplete and they are not as high quality.

Speaker 2:

So if you keep waiting, you're 45, you have the chances are reducing.

Speaker 3:

They're reducing Even though now, medically, your ovaries can be stimulated to produce eggs. But what qualities would they be of? And now young women have been advised to you know, from 25 and whenever, to start thinking of storing their eggs. Again, that's a whole new debate. I don't know the whole process around that, but all of this is because the egg depletes and the quality diminishes. So if you delay, you are having faith. Why don't you have faith that when you seek help, from when you notice there's a problem, it will work, because faith and works go together. God can do it without and he can do it with, so trust him through the process.

Speaker 2:

So you said something just now. You said you waited one month, two months, eight years. It didn't happen. At what stage would you say that couples should start thinking about exploring other options and intervention and trying to find out what's going on?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think, yes, you're right when we because we know we wanted to we didn't want to have children straight away, we wanted to. You know we just got married. You know there are things we needed to do for our own family before. We wanted to be ready for them to come. And I don't know, being ready would mean different things to different couples, but for us certainly we weren't at that place yet, and so ready would mean different things to different couples, but for us certainly we weren't at that place yet and so we we gave it time. You know, I got married quite early. I was 25 and, you know, weren't ready, so we were on the bed, control, and then came off the pill five years later, finished my school and everything and, you know, started trying. I was 30.

Speaker 3:

So the advice is if you are under 35, you should seek help. If you are trying consistently for a year without any results, you should seek help, medical advice. If you are over 35, it should be six months. So that's the advice by the NHS, by the National Health Service in this country you should seek help straight away. And that involves going to your health practitioner and saying, look, this is what we've been doing and at that point they would carry out the necessary tests. They know the tests they're going to perform for you, send you for your FSH to see your ovulation level.

Speaker 3:

Your husband's or your partner's sperm counts will be taken into, because it's both of you and then your results will be, uh, discussed with you to see if there's any problem and in our case there wasn't. And they said, well, we're just going. You know, relax, it's gonna happen. But it didn't. So we decided we're going to. My husband was like we're going to straight away seek help, we're going to start the process, because it's been a year, so that means nothing's happening. Let's take it further. Let's continue the investigation.

Speaker 3:

So we did it. I had a keel surgery to look through my ovaries. Everything was fine. I had a volition test, everything was fine. I was ablating on time. I had, when everything came back, fine, he was fine. Okay, we're both relatively young, healthy adults. No reason not to. But it still wasn't happening.

Speaker 3:

And then we went for the next phase of the discussion. Should you do so, there are various treatments that could be recommended. They said okay, because there was nothing wrong. You know, maybe we, just the body, just need a little bit of help, maybe your ovaries just need a little bit of push, and this is again where medicine has advanced such that you don't have to. I, I mean, I was 30, 31, because I had my first daughter when I was 38. So there was no reason.

Speaker 3:

So you know, we were given a course of what you call to stimulate the ovaries I can't remember what it's called now, it's such a long time ago so that it will help your ovaries produce eggs. If it was struggling to, that would help you and you would know it will help your ovaries produce eggs. If it was struggling to, that would help you and you would know it will help you to ovulate. So there was nothing wrong, but that was the standard treatment, so it was um deemed not to have an impact, so we had to sort of stop that process and carried on. So that was what happened for us then.

Speaker 2:

Okay, so I just wanted you to talk us through your own experiences. For somebody who is thinking of going through IVF, what kind of things should they expect? First from the physical point of view, and then from the emotional point of view point of view, and then from the emotional?

Speaker 3:

point of view. Oh, what you should expect is a roller coaster of emotions. Okay, you will never be prepared. It's like anything. I mean, I don't know. I've had different treatments for the various medical conditions not in serious, but IVF is. Everything about you is very, very personal. It's very invasive. Your body is being looked at and there is you need to be. First of all, when you're going through the process of infertility, you have so much questions. You'll be thinking why is my body doing this? And men process things differently.

Speaker 3:

I know my husband certainly wasn't worried, he wasn't bothered, but I felt my body wasn't functioning the way it was meant to. So you, as a woman, you might be disappointed in in yourself, in your own, in your body, in your reproductive system. And I certainly was reading a lot, I was googling a lot, trying to find out what I can do. It's healthy and all of that. So, ivf, when you come to that point where you have made a decision, you've spoken with your medical practitioner, they've decided that's what you're going to do. They would explain the process to you. And now I think there's a lot of resources out there Instagram pages, you know. On the internet you can find even YouTube channels where you can find people talking about their own experiences. I would say, mentally, you have to be ready because there is a process. I think the whole process takes about four weeks from when you start the investigation because there's a lot of tests. Okay, so you what?

Speaker 2:

kind of tests.

Speaker 3:

So they would have to test that because some of the tests have to again your ovulation, your period, and then they would have to know if you have any prior existing medical condition that might affect the treatment. It involves a lot of blood work. So, your ovulation at different times, you will be told what time to come and do it, sometimes early in the morning, it's got to be the first day of your ovulation. At different times of the, you will be told what time to come and do it, sometimes early in the morning, it's going to be at the first day of your ovulation. So you, you need to. You need to check that you're ovulating. You should buy the, the um test strips, and you need to. There might be another test at the end of your own monthly flow, and it's mainly I mean for the, for the, for men, it's just your sperm counts and once that's fine, you have, you don't, nothing else is done. They might even advise you to stop drinking and all of that you know. But for the woman, our body is a bit more special. We are fearfully and wonderfully made right. We have all these intricacies that are flowing through here and all of that. So I'm not medically trained, so I can't really I can't tell you for a certain what each test is looking for. Yeah, it would be, but essentially you would be put through a series of tests and then you would be advised of the result.

Speaker 3:

I think sometimes for me and I think we discussed it where I knew I had a pre-AZ medical condition, I think I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis, which is an autoimmunity where my joints, my immunity, affects my joints and then it means that it affects every part. It can affect your reproductive organ. I was never diagnosed, as that was the reason, but when I went to my medical practitioner that specializes in treating at the point where we decided to go further, I think I was 37, yeah, so at that point I'd had two failed ivf anyway, and that was the third one, but both times nobody gave me any special treatment. So you can be put on a series of drugs to maybe suppress I was given to suppress your immunity. Perhaps that might be what was affecting me then.

Speaker 3:

And if you have any pre-existing condition, if you go to a specialist they might treat that before you start your IVF treatment. So there's all of this process of back and forth tests. You'll be working closely with the clinic because they're a specialist clinic. You'll be working closely with them, you'll be on the phone, they'll call you to discuss your results. So when you're ready for the full IVF. It's a series of injections, so you'll be told when to take them and essentially those injections are meant to help you produce more eggs, so that you produce more eggs than normal. And then, after two weeks and during the process, you'll be tested.

Speaker 3:

You keep going back because they have to measure the size of the eggs. So it's a very, very fine work. You need to be and all of these things are going. Your emotions are all over the place.

Speaker 2:

Nobody knows it must be tiring going back and forth.

Speaker 3:

So you know, I have a friend who did what? Seven and I only did three. I don't know how she coped. So a lot of the people who do this, they don't. It's also you know you want something so much you don't really consider the process, what goes into it. It's emotionally draining. So you need a really supportive spouse or supportive partner or community.

Speaker 3:

And you need a really good clinic and you need, if you're I was working, nobody knows I think now I hear they give they want to give people time for those treatments. Me then I was, I wouldn't go and discuss it with my boss, got nothing to do with anybody. But for some people they might need help to time off work because I was gonna say that I used all my life to do that, so nobody had to know so.

Speaker 3:

So if I'm not at work, it's an unwell leave. Nobody had to know where I was going. It was personal, so I didn't need to, and if I felt unwell I would call in sick when I have to, because there were so many back and forth, so many back and forth Every day when you are on that injection. Certainly the first two wasn't as rigorous. Maybe that was why it didn't work up. I can't, I don't know for sure why, but the third one it was. So it was so rigorous that I it was stressful, heavily stressful. I would get to work and my uh, my appointment for my blood was, would be at seven in the morning and it was nowhere near me, it was like two hours away. So I would, you know, make that journey there and I used to get to to the blood uh center and I'll see this queue of women waiting and I remember I would pray for them because we're all after one something the same thing, some with their partners, and it's so touching.

Speaker 3:

I was like wow, and that clinic specializes in over 35s and I remember I chose that clinic specifically because I had done my research and I know that their success rate has been all over the news. Their success rate is 50 percent for over 35s, about 70 for under. So they have a very, very high success rate and I thought that's where I'm going. Yeah, and luckily it worked. Uh, but thank god it did. But the whole process is draining you. Nothing prepares you. The two weeks I was going back and forth, they were measuring and at a point they decide the eggs are ripe or they're big enough because there is a measurement. You sit in the scan. When you finish your blood work, your nurse will call you and say, well, it's time for collection. You go into the waiting room and you will prep Every two days there is a measurement that will be taken of the eggs and to see the size of your do you have to be there for the measurement every two days? Yes, you scan. Yeah, you'll be scanning your, your abdomen.

Speaker 2:

You'll be scanning your, yeah so you have to go every two days, your two-hour journey every two days yeah, yeah, I was going.

Speaker 3:

Oh, this was before work from home and anything. So what happened at that time? God is so faithful because at that time I moved offices. I didn't know at the time that the clinic I was going to use was going to be five minutes away from my office. I had no idea. I moved offices and when we sought help from that clinic I was like, wow, so I would come into work. I'm going to work normally. I know I'll leave my bag, you know, just log out and then I'll cross the road, go across the road and have my blood works and come back and sit and work for the rest of the day. So sometimes, when the nurses will call me that, oh, we need you to come back for another test lunch break, I just said, yeah, I'll see you at 12, at one, and I'd log out again. Oh, I'm going for lunch break. I'll go, go across the room, you know, a few blocks down I'll be at the clinic. That was how I was able to cope.

Speaker 3:

But there were people coming from across the world. There were people who had to book hotels for that two weeks in that area. So there were people staying there, because I certainly met some women. They were not local. They were not even in the same. Yeah, they were not local, so they have to book a stay because it was very, very intense. Yeah, and then you just try and live life normally. At this point you're not telling anybody you are doing that.

Speaker 3:

It's not you know it's nobody's business, so it's not really nobody yeah yeah, it's not something you, unless people who have been through it. I know one of two friends knew, because they've been through it. So I said, look, you know, pray with me. And when the, the eggs are collected and when it's time, you saw, this was where my office came into being.

Speaker 3:

When it was time, I was told it was going to be collected and I thought, oh yeah, that's fine. I thought it was going to be one of these days. Go in there, collect it. I go back and sit down. And I went in and I go are you going back to work? I was like, yes, no, you can't because it's going to be a procedure. Oh, really. So that I had to go back, log out and come, because I don't think. Yes, I was sedated, I had to go, yes, and come back, and I had a taxi take me home. So it was a process whereby I got home and it was collected and I you would wait. So you would wait for them to tell you how the, the state of the eggs, if they are healthy, how many. So my disappointment with my first two proceed procedure was so I was so disappointed because eggs were not matured, the eggs died before fertilization. The eggs were. No, it was just defective and they start fragmenting. Fragment is when the eggs start without fatalities are breaking up.

Speaker 3:

It was like what's going on, and every time there was not enough, so that those experiences I was, I won't say I was hopeful.

Speaker 2:

How did you, how did you cope with that? So, when the ivf has been unsuccessful, how do people navigate that? How did you deal with that? Because you're going there with the anticipation or expectation that, okay, I've not, it's not happened this way. Yeah, okay, hopefully this would work. And then you go, then you go to all of this going back and forth and then it fails. Yeah, twice. And I was like oh, my word.

Speaker 3:

So when you get a call, the first of all call us, called me to say, oh yeah, we've got five eggs. I was like five Because I've been reading people get 25, people get 10. I'm people get 25, people get 10. I'm like what, the first time, five where you mean five, they said, but you only need one. I said, okay, that's fine, but we'll let you know, we'll leave them. Um, so I think they're gonna leave them and then they'll fertilize them and they'll call me and I can't exactly recall exactly when I got the call to say I was expecting them to call me to say you know, you come in for it to be fertilized and they go, go.

Speaker 3:

Oh, the next day I got a call to say, oh, unfortunately none of them survived, the two healthiest ones. When we look at them, they had already started fragmenting, they were defective. Oh, we're so sorry. I'm like, okay, I didn't know how to. So it's like that's it Nothing, no, nothing. I didn't know how to, so it's like that's it Nothing, no, nothing. There was nothing to visualize. It was like, okay, it was disappointing. I think I cried, you cry. It's like all of that strain, all of that I remember. It's not just the emotional, the physical, the financial cost you paid for the process?

Speaker 3:

Yes, you paid for it. That's true. So you're thinking that's a lot of money not to get anything and we thought, okay, we're going to do it again.

Speaker 2:

So did you make that decision to do it again immediately.

Speaker 3:

We did it. I think at six months we gave up my body time to rest. Okay, what did you?

Speaker 2:

do within the six months. Just live life.

Speaker 3:

I continued to live life normally. It was just live life, I continue to live life normally. It was like your morning for what didn't happen or what could have been. So you know, you just carry on. I'm always this go happy, go happy, happy, go lucky, what you call it. I am not one that sits on and have a pity party. I would always do stuff. I would go out, you know I, I was working anyway, so I was. In the end, I was always traveling. You know, recently I came across pictures of my travels. I'm like, oh my God, I've been around, because I used to. I would just book a flight with my friend and we would go different places, even out and about in London. So it was really nice that I had that support and we would do that. So it was really nice that I had that support and we would do that. So we went again, we did another, but went to the same place, because it was even recently.

Speaker 3:

My husband was saying to me I told you that we shouldn't go there, that we should go for the highest. You said no, but I thought it was your body, so I let you make the call. I'm like, oh, did I? I can't even remember. I said, yes, I don't know what's wrong with my memory. I couldn't even remember because a lot of things were lost on me. Yeah, I was so scared to go to the highest level of stimulation. So what do you mean by highest level of stimulation.

Speaker 2:

What does that entail?

Speaker 3:

The stimulation is when there are different levels of the dosage of the IVF medication. Okay, so the first time I had very little eggs. They went very healthy. They suggested they should go for the highest dose. Okay, simulation.

Speaker 2:

I said no so I thought it was just like there was a prescribed dose that they give and straight off. That works.

Speaker 3:

So they start from one of the lowest level because if mine wasn't explained, I felt you know what just needed a push. Okay, too much, okay, full blast, okay, and I won't have the experience the first time. It failed, I one would have thought, okay, go for the highest level.

Speaker 2:

My husband was just does it cost more to go for the highest level, or was it the same okay?

Speaker 3:

no, it's the same package, okay. So we went for the second one and it failed again. In fact, it was worse. I think it was only three, and he died immediately.

Speaker 2:

That must have just broken you. I was like this is it?

Speaker 3:

We're not doing anything else? Excuse me, and I thought this is it. I'm not going back there. I don't know what they're doing. This was meant to be the fourth or fifth best clinic in the UK and we let it go. We said okay, okay, let's rest. So we didn't do anything for about two years and miraculously, I got pregnant naturally just two, two years, twice. But it failed, which was bizarre, never feeling pregnant naturally before. And then I had to feel the ipf and then I had first pregnancy ended in miscarriage. Second one, one five months later, ended in miscarriage. How did you feel?

Speaker 2:

Because I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the emotion.

Speaker 3:

So you see, to be honest with you, the loss I felt from the IVF not working and from the miscarriages were totally I think they were the same they were the same.

Speaker 2:

Okay, I think they were the same. They were the same?

Speaker 3:

Okay, I think so.

Speaker 3:

For me, the IVF. I was mourning the fact that my body couldn't produce any good eggs. I was really disappointed, really disappointed. When I felt pregnant, I was excited, and then, when I lost the first pregnancy and then lost the second pregnancy I think it's just a roller coaster of emotions. And I remembered when I lost the first one. I was due to have a lunch with a friend.

Speaker 3:

I was off work and I've just been told that I had this scan. There was was no heartbeat. We're sorry. I said, okay, fine, I left the hospital and I called her. I said yes, I'm meeting you Now. She didn't know. Okay, she said so how are you? Oh, I can't wait to meet you. And you tell me all about your pregnancy and I go oh, no, no, about you can't meet me. This is central. No, you're not. Well, you need to. I called my husband. I was at work. I called I don't even know who. I called her and she goes no, you can't, you can't meet me. I said no, I was still insisting. So I was just wanting to carry on as normal.

Speaker 3:

So you were Denying what was going on? Yes, because they said they're going to call me to find out what I want to do. If I let it, you know, come out, evacuate naturally or go for the procedure. And I said I would let it come out because I was still hopeful. I felt maybe God will have a miracle, maybe in the morning there will be a heartbeat. It does happen for some people. It does happen Until I started bleeding profusely and then I was at 12 weeks.

Speaker 3:

So, in terms of the emotions, you are mourning the loss of a child, because he's a child to me and in terms of the faith IVF you are mourning what could have been. So both are equally lost. One never actually happened, like you didn't go through the whole process of implantation with IVF. And then, when you actually felt pregnant, the hopes I remember the second time I was not hope. I was. I was hope. I wasn't hopeful, I was cautious. I was like I was excited, like my body is finally working. I was was like wow, my body. Actually I can feel pregnant. This is great. But then I was cautious. I was like, oh God, what happened the first time? I'd had a loss and then it happened again. I was like, oh no, here we go again. And then, this time because we were about to go to Mauritius and for this time, so I couldn, I couldn't let them. Nature take its course. I don't want to go to the other side of the world and be bleeding profusely or fall ill. So I had to let them have carry out the procedure and it was just the. I think that was the worst feeling. And oh, our dear friend came with me and bless her, you you know, she came with me, she sat with me. I don't think she remembers, but I'll tell her later, jane, she sat with me, she came with me, she came home, because I don't know how she managed to know. I think it was the next day. I called her and she said I'll come with you because my husband couldn't come. So she went with me to the hospital and she sat outside and that was done, and so and so we gave ourselves time, our thoughts.

Speaker 3:

Then I started researching. That's like, okay, right, this is the final one. I'm not going to go through this, because this is the emotion. So I wasn't ready to keep suffering, to keep losing. I was just done, I was tired. It's emotionally draining time is going. I was 37. I was like, wow, I'm gonna be an older mom, I don't want to start having children. I'm 45, you know all those things you know. And then, a year later I, after doing my research, I just went to my husband. I said this is the clinic I'm going to. I've read about them. They are the best in europe, no question. He said, yes, fine, just when you're ready. And it worked so. But I'll tell you now what it did. The first two was nowhere near that was. That was, I would say I don't want to use it brutal it was, but it was thorough. That was the daily blood test daily, yeah.

Speaker 2:

So what if you were not walking near the place? What would you?

Speaker 3:

have, I would have had to go to, maybe book an hotel, like other people did. Okay, like other couples that I see there, you would have had to take time off work as well.

Speaker 3:

Yes, I would have had to take time off work, because a lot of people that I saw there for that two weeks they were off work Couples Maybe the lady comes alone. It was brutal, it was intense the test. So when they found out that I had this condition, they wanted to. I'm currently on the injection they wanted to give me 13 years ago when my husband refused and said this injection is really, really strong. It will knock down your immunity and you'll be susceptible to ulcers. The IVF clinic we don't know, I don't know that they can have the management because it's for IVF. They don't know that that's what's causing your infertility. So we rejected that injection as a precaution, because they would have done that to give me, to downgrade my fertility, my immunity, because they felt that was what was stopping it we said no, we're not going to take that injection.

Speaker 3:

That was and of course this was way like four times more expensive than the two combined. Wow, because we were like this is it?

Speaker 2:

I mean, it's the best in Europe. So if you don't have the money, what do you do? People borrow.

Speaker 3:

People take loan Because one of the ladies people I met there, some of them took loan, Some of them put their houses on mortgage to have a child.

Speaker 2:

Can you imagine you put your house on mortgage and then it doesn't work?

Speaker 3:

It must and then it doesn't work. I know I mean a lot of people, some people don't recover and especially I mean there was a book I read about life. Uh, when it doesn't happen, I read that book over and they might say why are you reading that book? What if it doesn't happen? That's not fit. You know. I'm like okay, so I had to stop. But in there you can find stories of people. It never happened. They had to come to terms with that. It's really hard. So a lot of feeds.

Speaker 3:

People put money on credit card to their houses, on remote gauging houses. You know, take a loan. And we did the two weeks again. I was, you know, I had the process, go through all that process and I'll tell you this story of when I found out I was pregnant. When the eggs were collected, they called me. I was like, okay, here we go again. And they said, oh, wow, you had I think I had five. I was like, oh, that's good. In the morning they will see how much they've developed. And they called me. They said just two are left, but those two are very healthy.

Speaker 3:

Oh god, thank god, it was not as bad as the previous one at least I have two, and so they proceed with the fertilization process and I was told I would be told to come in for the implantation because they will monitor it over two days. There's what you call blastocysts, where, oh God, the process of infertility, and this is why I would understand why some people would say it's not natural, it's not of God. Well, I saw those people who have children. If their children are not natural, then they will tell you. You know what you're talking about. But blastocysts when they help the embryo to develop further in the dish, in the lab, rather than in the womb, so you see progress before it comes into your body, so you're almost certain there's going to be a pregnancy.

Speaker 2:

Funny, I found out today that the word in vitro actually means that dish.

Speaker 3:

Yes, in vitro the dish where they do the fertilization in vitro dish. So it's really a work of science and it's miraculous. So I really respect God in my, my awe of god. And when the bible says ye are gods, you know god, you can't. You can't fathom them. They said we haven't really tapped into what our brains can do you see what we are currently doing with ai you see what the human mind is.

Speaker 3:

That's just meaning here goes, goes. We're small, go. You're made in this image and likeness. What God can do when you tap into your very essence, we can do wonders. That's why you see all this medical intervention by scientists in every aspect of life. It's really a work of miracle.

Speaker 3:

Anyway, I was told to come for the implantation. When I was called, they said oh well, great news, you're ready, your eggs are doing well, only one though. I was like, oh God, they said, but you only need one and it's really doing well. I'm like gosh out of no, it was eight Out of eight. I was almost not there. Can you imagine that? Wow, we bought one was almost not there. Can you imagine that? Wow, we both went. So my husband came with me because it was a procedure and the implantation was done.

Speaker 3:

I was told I shouldn't move for 24 hours. I was yeah, that was what the doctor said. Well, I moved anyway, I went, I didn't do much, I went on. But you have a two weeks wait for the pregnancy test and in, you know, the medication continues. I used to say I envy people who just go through pregnancy. No problem, you think the treatment stopped? No, it was injections here, pregesterone clicks and this and see whatever. There was so many injections. At the end my bum was so, my belly was so, and in two weeks you have to test. Well, you have to go in for a blood test. You don't do the strip, you have to go back into the hospital. They have to do a blood test. Two weeks now, oh god, I don't have any symptoms. I don't have any. I'm not not pregnant, no pregnancy symptoms.

Speaker 3:

I went in a group of us lining the hallway again have the tests with. We're told to wander around and if it's positive, you'll be given a. Well, you'll be given a call regardless. So I was just wandering around the shopping mall in the maze. I don't know what I was doing in sean louis. I was just going and I got it. Oh hi, mrs, congratulations, you're pregnant. I was like what? Yeah, yeah, come back so that we can give you prescriptions for progesterone injections for this. So I called my husband and said it's positive. They don't tell you you're pregnant.

Speaker 3:

They don't even say that. They say your progesterone level, your FSH level. I've forgotten the term. Yeah, it's above. It has to be above a certain number. Okay, to say it's pregnant. So so it's above like 17,000. It should be from 9,000. I said wow, so I went back. That was when my journey began of three months of injections.

Speaker 2:

I have three months of injections again. Yes, why?

Speaker 3:

It's progesterone injection to make sure.

Speaker 3:

I thought once you were pregnant, that's it. And then the test, the scan and the test, blood test every to see that your progesterone, your oh, what's the name, the term? Is increasing. If it's increasing, your pregnancy is progressing. And it wasn't local. So my husband would drive me or I would go back to work and I would go and do the test. I would come back and every day I would at.

Speaker 3:

At one point I just said I'm not taking this injection, I think at three months, when we had the scan and then we had the heartbeats. The baby is formed, it was beating. But again, I lost the child at three months, at 12 weeks, so everything was fine. And then they discharged me from my IVF clinic to my local surgery and again, I tell you this, there were nines out, woken up. My husband said I can't feel anything, it's happening again. It's happening again. So the fear was there, was there and they will. I will call the clinic and the clinic is open 24 hours. We would drive to london, go and have a scan or have a blood test. Yeah, it was weird, it was okay, it okay, okay, I know it's. But to save us the heartache, yeah, you have to buy a doppel scanner.

Speaker 3:

Okay, I could just so he could do it yourself or you could do it okay, just to keep you yes it was what calmed me for the rest of it. I saw it yesterday. It was still by my best. I still have the do say do you remember this? Oh my god, I was terrible. I was like I can't feel anything, okay, and I know how. Just put it. I would hear baby is fine it is fine. So that's the trauma on the, the, the, the, the mental distress of having gone through two failed IVF, two losses was, I wasn't.

Speaker 3:

I never had any moment of peace. It was till the day my baby was born. I never had any rest. I would wake up thinking, even when I had it, I think I just had some, some calmness with that scanner, the double scanner. That was what gave me. I just had some calmness with that scanner, the Dupo scanner, that was what gave me the heartbeat. And then, as I progressed, my pregnancy progressed, everything was fine and it became real. When we were going shopping, when we started telling everyone it became real, real and decorating the room. So I would say for anyone looking, you need to be prepared. I think now they're canceling.

Speaker 3:

There are talk shows like this giving our perspective Seek help as quickly as possible While you pray and while you're trusting God, trust the process, trust your medical professional, trust that it would work. Sadly, I have friends who never tried and now it's it's too late for them because I mean, I I used to say I don't want to be a mom at 50. If you want to be a mom at 50, at 60, keep trying. But why? Why wait when there is, when there's help available to kickstart you might not you kickstart, you just need help to kickstart the process and you might have saved yourself a lot of heartache. Yeah, so that's my story.

Speaker 2:

It's uh I just wanted to ask something because I was reading about um pre-conception health and I was just going to ask you do you think that in the schools now they should start teaching you know when they teach about um sexual health and all of that that they should start teaching you know when they teach about sexual health and all of that that they should start teaching girls and boys, not just girls.

Speaker 3:

Girls and boys, children and young adults.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, about things like this happening, and then they should be prepared.

Speaker 3:

I think there should be a space for that, and even as mothers and as parents, society should prepare young people for life, because a lot of people get married. You know, the first time they know that something is wrong is when they are trying for a baby they've never been told that this could happen.

Speaker 3:

Anything could happen. So you pre, when coming back to that, yes, there should be what your diet plays a a factor in what you feed yourself, what you feed into your blood, how does that nourish your eggs, your ovaries? When you're doing your motorcycle, you need to adopt a healthy lifestyle Because I recall then if you go to your GP they'll do your weight measurement and all of that, your BMI, because if you're a certain weight you will be told to lose weight because that might, being overweight, affects your fertility. So you'll be told some places, even the NHS, some of them, would offer you treatment if you're above a certain BMI or the recommended BMI. So certainly that tells you your health is a factor. So there should be an education around that, an awareness certainly, especially for, I would say, women, because there is a endometriosis, there is blocked.

Speaker 3:

I had a friend who needed, didn't know she had blocked tubes, never knew until she got married and tried, tried, tried for five years nothing happened. Sadly, the relationship broke down. They're not married now and she never had a child, but he wouldn't go for a checkup because he had a daughter. He said the problem certainly isn't with me, but he did eventually and they found that he was fine. And that was when they found that she had blocked tubes. Both tubes were blocked so she could have done IVF. But again the relationship broke up, I think.

Speaker 2:

I remember doing the dye test to check my tubes. Yes, they do that, they do dye. I think it was with the keyhole test.

Speaker 3:

They do the dye to see if everything goes, because you suffered from it, you've had your losses and all of that. So you could see that women, there should be some. There's counselling now you have the association. Even your IVF clinic have counselling, even your GP surgery and your medical. They will refer you to those specific professionals who have those tailored help for that specific purpose, not just a generalised counselling.

Speaker 2:

In fact they were saying the person. The thing I was reading was talking about, um, the preconception clinic. Actually, for those who have decided we want to have a child, yeah, that there should be a clinic where they go for like about three months or so, where they prepare them in terms like you just mentioned diet, yeah, nutrition weight.

Speaker 3:

You know things like that. People take folic acid. That's to prepare you to avoid.

Speaker 2:

That's all you told there was this she was saying that there's so many things that the people could actually do, and I'm thinking that I think that's a good idea.

Speaker 3:

There are exercise, diets, weight loss, um, even mentally. Be in that mental frame. That's true, yourself and your partner. Be in that mental frame of mind Because you need to believe it's going to happen for you.

Speaker 2:

Vitamins Get yourself your body ready, because your body, especially as a woman, is going to be the vessel it's going to carry a human being, so it has to be in the best shape possible and even the mental thing you're talking about to prevent things that people can do, to prevent post uh is it post-pass, post-natal depression, yeah and yeah, that's another aspect, that's, that's true.

Speaker 3:

You could, yeah, because if you're prepared, you know the signs.

Speaker 3:

Yes, you know the signs quickly and I think a lot of what we in our culture, african culture we're not honest with ourselves and we delay. I don't know why, why we don't seek help on time. Please seek help immediately and keep seeking help if you're if you're, if you're like I was with a clinic didn't work, I didn't. I went back there the second time. The third time I didn't go back there. Do your own research. I mean with google and everything out there. Now and then we didn't have as much information.

Speaker 3:

In fact, I learned about this clinic because there was a documentary on them on b and when they listed their track record, it wasn't even a good documentary. They were sort of saying they were overcharging women and it doesn't work. But I took notes. It was like overcharging women, well, if you're telling me they have the highest rate in Europe, that's where I'm going. So it wasn't a documentary that put them in a favorable light. But I went to look, search them up, and it turned out they sued the BBC for defamation and they were exonerated because BBC lost and they had to retract their statement. So I was like, okay, that gives them credibility. So do your own research, find out, talk to people, talk to friends and family. That gives them credibility. So do your own research, find out, talk to people, talk to friends and family and, if you want, to reach out to us.

Speaker 3:

Reach out to us. We can put you with professionals who can help. Who can help? Yes, but don't keep delaying, especially if you are over 35. If you are, I mean the moment you start trying, even if you are from your 20s. I have a friend who got married early and she started trying from when she was 25, unlike me, that I delayed and it didn't work for another eight years.

Speaker 2:

Wow. So what if she hadn't started?

Speaker 3:

then If she hadn't started and she started seeking help immediately. But then they found all sorts of things that were wrong with her. You know she wasn't ovulating properly and even she had six IVF before one of them and she has just one child and she was like imagine if I hadn't started immediately. We wanted to have children immediately. Look who knew. So there's all of these things that we have to take into consideration and do the right thing.

Speaker 2:

We've come to the end of another podcast. I don't know where the time goes. The time goes very quickly, but thank you so, so much Before we go. As always, I'd like to end the podcast on a note of hope. So what can you say to people out there who are listening to you, somebody who might be considering it, somebody who is thinking is this for me, Should I, Should I not? What would you say to encourage people out?

Speaker 3:

there. It's possible. Just believe, pray, believe and act. Don't do one or the other, do both. Trust the process, trust God, trust your body and plug into a community. It will work. And if you really want a child, just believe god. It will happen for you. And it could happen for you, depending on in any way you want it to be. If you want to go through the, if you're, if you're over 50 and you still want to have a child, consider other options adoption, surrogacy All of these can make your dreams come true. But keep praying, keep hoping, keep believing and trust God.

Speaker 2:

Keep praying keep hoping, keep believing and, above all, trust God. Trust God. Thank you so much, debbie. Thank you for coming. Oh, my pleasure, thanks for having me.

Speaker 3:

Hopefully we'll have you again on the show sometime soon I'll be honored, thank you. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2:

Thank you all for listening to another episode of Navigating the Chapters of Challenge. Thank you for spending time with us again today. Please, please, please, share this episode. If you found it useful, share it with your friends, your family, anybody you think might benefit from it. Please share it, and we'd love to hear from you. If you want to ask Debbie any questions, just send us a message and she'll be very happy to answer your questions. And thank you, and hopefully we'll see you on another episode of Navigating the Chapters of Challenge. See you next time, sometimes soon. Take care of navigating the chapters of challenge sometime soon. Take care and god bless you. You.