Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Tele

Embracing Imperfection in Marriage

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In this candid and thought-provoking episode,  our guest Fela explores the often elusive idea of "perfection in marriage." He challenges the notion of a flawless relationship, pointing out that just as no person is perfect, neither is any marriage. Fela shares valuable insights on how perfection in marriage can sometimes be an unattainable ideal, leading to unrealistic expectations and potential dissatisfaction.

Through his relatable perspective, Fela emphasizes the importance of compromise, encouraging couples to let go of rigid stances in conflicts. He explains how every conflict offers a chance for deeper understanding, provided both partners are willing to adjust and listen. Rather than striving for perfection, he advocates for a mindset of partnership, where couples work together for the greater good of their relationship. Fela closes with an inspiring message: while perfection may be out of reach, harmony and resilience in marriage are possible if both partners are open and willing to put in the effort.

Key Takeaways

  • Perfection is a Myth: Fela emphasizes that striving for an ideal, conflict-free marriage can create unnecessary pressure. Embracing imperfections in yourself and your partner can lead to a more grounded and authentic relationship.
  • The Power of Compromise: Holding onto rigid positions in disagreements can be a barrier to growth. Fela explains how genuine compromise—not forced sacrifice—can bridge the gap between differing perspectives and strengthen the bond between partners.
  • Shifting Perspectives: Resolving conflicts often requires a shift in perspective. By approaching issues with empathy and a willingness to understand, couples can find common ground and cultivate mutual respect.
  • Working Together: Instead of aiming for an unattainable level of perfection, Fela encourages couples to view marriage as a partnership focused on teamwork and shared goals. This mindset can pave the way for resilience and adaptability in any challenging situation.

Tune in for practical insights and a fresh perspective on creating a resilient, authentic marriage—one that thrives not on perfection, but on understanding, unity, and love.





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SPEAKER_01:

so so Hello and welcome to another episode of Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Tele. Today I've got Fela in the house with me and I'll just ask him to introduce himself. I'm going to have another interesting conversation around marriage and things in marriage that we need to look out for and walk on. Okay, so Fela, introduce yourself again. Say hello to the audience and we'll take you from there.

SPEAKER_00:

Hello and thank you for having me again on Navigating the Chapters of Challenge for another episode. this afternoon.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, thank you for coming back. You always come back, so we're grateful that you always come back when we ask you. So thank you so much. So today we're going to discuss an interesting topic and the topic for today is the myth of perfection. So embracing imperfection in marriage. and unresolved conflicts and the impact of conflict on marriage. So it's a bit of a long-winded one, but we're trusting the Holy Ghost to help us and guide us through this one. So my first question to you, do we need to be perfect in marriage?

SPEAKER_00:

Do we need to be perfect? We... We're all a work in progress. So anyone looking for perfection in someone is not realistic. I think for me, we just need to look at different areas. Because when we're talking about the issue of imperfection and people looking for perfection, sometimes it's not so much about perfection. It's just... I think sometimes it's about some element of continuity, not wanting to take three steps forward and two steps back. We all know, except someone who wants to deceive themselves, everyone is fallible. I would know you don't always get it right. So first thing is admitting that we can't always get it right. But when... People have different levels of OCD. And I think when you get to the level of OCD in an area, that's where the conflict actually comes in. But I would always say when people have areas that they don't resolve, it's one, you have to understand where the both parties have to understand where either party is coming from. Because it's until when you understand where each party is coming from, then you both can arrive at a solution or you can both walk in the same direction. You may not do things exactly the same way, but you're walking in the same direction. Each party would understand from the other person's perspective why things are done in a particular way. So, yes, that's what I think about... the issue of perfection. There are some people that have excessive OCDs and that can drive some other person up the wall. But if you're dealing with just the average, let me use the phrase, Joe, in marriage, it's about understanding that in marriage, it's two people coming together with several differences and ideas about life and upbringing and social influences coming together, trying to work out how to move in the same direction with as little friction as possible.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so why are people looking for a perfect marriage and can there actually ever be a perfect marriage?

SPEAKER_00:

Perfect marriage, looking at it from the biblical perspective, it says we're looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher. And the Bible encourages us to be perfect, even as our Lord Jesus was perfect. But we know we can't achieve perfection on this side of the aisle. You will always once in a while. So perfection in marriage, I think it's an ideal. It's perfect. To me, I would call it a utopia. It's not about perfection. It's about making things work for you in your own relationship. And I think that's what is fundamental.

SPEAKER_01:

So, you've not answered my question. Is there a perfect marriage? Can there be a perfect marriage? That's the second half of my question.

SPEAKER_00:

Can there be a perfect marriage? When you say perfect marriage... you're kind of putting it on a kind of either pedestal or giving it a scorecard. And I think every relationship will actually be the ones that would say they decide what is good for them. There are things that are fundamental in every relationship. Mutual respect for one another, having the fear of God, doing things, you know, to protect one another, loving your neighbor as yourself, once, for me, once you tick those boxes, most other things will fall in line. I mean, it just depends on what anybody says. When you say you're looking for a perfect marriage, what's a perfect marriage? That's the first question. What is a perfect marriage? Are we talking about a marriage where people do not argue?

SPEAKER_01:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

for some people that's the perfect marriage but sometimes when you look at there's a difference between disagreeing and arguing we can have different viewpoints we can disagree on a position but that does not necessarily have to lead to an unresolvable conflict. It doesn't have to lead us to a point of irreconcilable differences. So the idea of a perfect marriage is a work in progress. It's a continuum. What issues and things we dealt with in year one or year two, in year ten,

SPEAKER_01:

we

SPEAKER_00:

should have grown

SPEAKER_01:

and

SPEAKER_00:

learned how to manage those things. Many of them should no longer become issues for us. By the time you're going to year 50, year 20, you're dealing with different scenarios. So the issue of a perfect marriage where people say, oh, we don't argue. Yes, you may not argue, but does that necessarily make it a very healthy relationship? Because when you say you don't argue, does that mean one person's viewpoint, the other party always agrees with it? For me, that's going to be stale. You're talking

SPEAKER_01:

about not having disagreements.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. I mean, you can disagree. There's nothing wrong in disagreeing. I mean, the Bible itself says, be angry, but don't

SPEAKER_01:

sin.

SPEAKER_00:

So there is room where things may get to a head, but you know how to manage it. You know where to stop it. This is getting to a place where no, no, no, it shouldn't be. And that's what it's all about. Managing every situation the best way for yourself.

SPEAKER_01:

Managing every situation the best way for yourself. So... If someone came to you and said, well, my husband does this, my husband does that, but I want him to do what my friend's husband does because I think that their marriage is absolutely wonderful because he does X, Y, Z for her, but my husband doesn't do that. What would you say to such a person?

SPEAKER_00:

First thing is that whoever is coming from male or female, first thing is you've started on the wrong premise by making comparisons. Because what you see on the outside is not necessarily a reflection of what... It's not a complete picture. Because what you see on the outside, for someone to do some things, they've been motivated or encouraged by... some other actions that are not visible. So if someone is saying, my husband or my spouse is not doing A or B, first question is, you want to ask them, what do you mean by they're not doing this? Because remember, like they say, when you're pointing four fingers, one is pointing back at you. Like that famous song with man in the mirror. You need to look at yourself in the mirror first. If I want a kind of behavior from you, I should not be waiting for you to act first. What can I do to encourage you to act the way I want you to act?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And more often than not, it could be the way you say things. It could even be the way you make some requests.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

And sometimes it just... Give an

SPEAKER_01:

example. Give a practical example.

SPEAKER_00:

Practical example. I remember this incident back in Nigeria where there was a couple. I mean, they used to do a lot of things together and the husband was a hands-on person. And at the end of every month, they used to... They had a group where they would share... a cow into about maybe six or eight different families who come together and then make their contributions of the buy and then split. Now I think a day or two before

SPEAKER_01:

That would sound strange to people

SPEAKER_00:

who are not from that kind of background. What it means is the man was helpful and was available to do a few some things around the house. Now a day or two before their portion of their meat portion was supposed to arrive. They had the a disagreement, which was not resolved. Now, the man wasn't home on the weekend, on the Saturday, when their portion was brought. And unfortunately, and I will use the phrase unintelligently, the wife divided their portion into two, cleaned a half, and left half for the husband. So when the husband came, I was like, oh, did they bring this? They said, yes, I've done my half, I've left yours for you. And the man was like, wow. Okay, this will be the last time you actually see me, you know, help out in the kitchen. If you want to feed us, fine. If you don't want, it's your choice. Maybe that's not the best way to have handled it in the instance. But what I'm trying to say is, The, what's the word? We have to be thoughtful about the kind of requests and the kind of comments that actions and reactions that we make I saw a clip that someone sent yesterday and he was talking about emotional emotional I can't remember the phrase but all it was was a man was on his way to work and he had his wristwatch in the shower while brushing his teeth now his wife walked in and in her whatever she just thought look She didn't want water to spill onto the wristwatch, so she moved it, placed it on the table in the dining room. The husband wasn't aware. Now, the young child, while trying to get ready, bumped the wristwatch. It fell and broke. It was at that point that the man realized what had happened. He yelled and screamed and, you know, cursed. His wife and his son were this and that, and now they've done this, they've done that. Now, Because he didn't calm down, he stormed out of the house.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Halfway onto his, onto, halfway on, I mean. On his way out. On his way out to work. He realized there was a presentation he needed to have put in his briefcase for a client.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So he realized that and left it in the house. He ran, he tried calling. But he couldn't get his wife. So he went back to the house. Unfortunately, the wife had left the house and locked and he didn't have his own keys. So by the time the wife finally got back and he was able to get his presentation, by the time he got back to the office, the client had left. Now his boss scolded him and said to him, this was a big client, a big opportunity you have missed. this year's bonus, you're not going to get it. Now, what happened in that instance was, what was the cost of the wristwatch that broke? And what did it cost everybody, not just him? On the way back from, while the wife was trying to get back home in time, she tripped, hurt her ankle, She ended up in hospital. The son, because the father had, you know, used some terms, whatever. He had a test in school that day and he performed poorly. The head teacher had to call the man in. And, you know, everything just snowballed from one small incident that if properly managed, would not. So, he was talking about weighing Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was not properly handled. So this is saying when we need to look at the bigger picture before we react in many instances. Because, you know, a phrase, I'm sorry, could stop so many, you know, so many arguments. Yeah. Each person's ego, not wanting to concede, you know, no, I'm not agreeing. It's not my fault. You know, it just lets things snowball and gather momentum. And by the time people actually realize it, it becomes, sometimes it becomes so difficult that you can't actually even untangle it. where the problem actually started from. And by the time you actually look at it, it's something that sorry may just

SPEAKER_01:

have solved. Okay. So in the... I'm still going back to this perfect and imperfect marriage thing. Do you think that where spouses are looking for perfection in their marriage or... No, that's not the way to put it. Spouses are looking for perfection in their spouse. Do you think that could be some form of control? Could it be down to some form of control? Somebody wanting to control the other, wanting the person to do stuff exactly the way they want to do it or the way they believe it should be done. Do you think that's some kind of control?

SPEAKER_00:

It could be if the person requesting it is not flexible enough.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

However, that's why you have to evaluate things. If I say, look, like, I mean, like the phrase, there are many ways you can kill a cat. Yeah. However, you can skin a cat, but there are some ways that you probably will be, you'll come out wounded if you don't, if you do things in a different way. So you can, you can, there are many roads that lead somewhere but some roads will save you time will save you effort and would save you money would save you stress but sometimes we're just so rigid in our ways because if every time i make a suggestion to you that why don't you do things like this you're the first thing that comes to your mind is he's trying to control me you will be resistant even if it's beneficial to you so it always stems from how am I receiving the message firstly it doesn't remove the fact that it could be a control thing but I would rather encourage someone to be more open minded and First, before thinking it's control. For you to say it's control, you would have several instances where you know this person just wants this thing done. Not because it's easier or quicker or more beneficial. He just wants it his way. So it's evaluating everything and then Making a decision.

SPEAKER_01:

So if you feel that it's actually control, how would you handle that? If one spouse feels that my partner is controlling, how would you handle it?

SPEAKER_00:

That's a very difficult one. How do you handle...

SPEAKER_01:

How would you react to it or what can you do? I

SPEAKER_00:

would say... If you think someone is trying to, I mean, it's making the person realize that, no, what you're asking me to do is not beneficial in any way. Okay. And you don't have to be aggressive in saying no. Just say no in a gentle way and making the person see why. you don't think that's the best approach in the circumstance. You don't have to be angry about it. It's just a subtle, no, I don't think so. I'll give my reasons. If the person is saying, no, no, no, I don't want to hear anything, just do it like that. That's already moving towards bullying and harassing. So it's just a subtle and gentle way of saying, no, I don't think it's whatever. And What you want to do it and prove to the person, if I'd done this the way you wanted me to do it, this is what it would have cost. I've done it this way. This is the outcome.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So why do you think that some conflicts remain unresolved?

SPEAKER_00:

Conflicts remain... It's about... Sometimes... people just don't want to confront issues

SPEAKER_01:

okay

SPEAKER_00:

because sometimes people just think look you know what it's too much it's too it's too difficult i don't i don't want let me use the phrase i don't want to fight

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

but that you you not accepting you don't have to fight to challenge a position. You don't have to be confrontational to challenge a position. It does not have to lead to a big bust up to confront a position. It can be done in a very mature, manageable and healthy way. If you ask me to say something and my response to you is Let's say you use volume one to make a request. And I think what you're asking me is wrong. If I raise my voice to volume two, you're not going to, you won't hear me. Because now you're like, why is he raising his voice? And then straight away, your back is up.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes.

SPEAKER_00:

And your response, if you're not someone very well controlled, you take it a notch up 2.5 and then 3. That's how it starts to build up. And then that's how it begins to build. So it's about responding in many situations and not

SPEAKER_01:

reacting.

SPEAKER_00:

Because when you're responding, you're coming with equal... In fact, sometimes your response is actually even lower because if someone is making a request of you, or saints challenging their position and they've raised their voice, what you want to do to diffuse the situation is to lower your voice. But that does not mean you will not make your point. In fact, sometimes it could be necessary not to say anything at that time. When you can feel the pulse and you know, This is tense.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So you diffuse the situation by just being quiet.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And if your powers is, you are not saying, you know, we can talk about this later when you have calmed down.

SPEAKER_01:

Saying when you have calmed down might cause a problem. If you're saying to somebody, we can talk about this later when you have calmed down, it might cause more problems.

SPEAKER_00:

No, yes, but it depends on how I say it. Okay. If my tone is as high as yours, I'll still say that's confrontational. If I say it in a very subtle way, with no expression of anger with no expression with my face not changing you know trying to sub you know you know force myself not to say the wrong things then you probably would listen and if if it means just getting up and moving away

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

from that place yeah just to diffuse i mean everybody would know what works for them just to diffuse a situation because it's always the earlier one diffuses the situation the easier it's it's like a fire

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

before it starts to grow put it out the moment it starts to grow it becomes difficult to control

SPEAKER_01:

but what if it's like you know most women when you ask them there's something wrong they say no i'm fine i'm fine How do you deal with such situations? Because sometimes we women do get into a point where we're like, you know what? I've told this man so many times. He's not hearing what I'm saying. So there's no point in me talking. How do you get around that kind of situation? How do you help the women to say what they need to say? And how should the men be reacting to such situations? What do you think?

SPEAKER_00:

think for first thing is if we look at the physiological composition of a man and a woman

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

women are an embodiment of emotions

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

men are mostly rational

SPEAKER_01:

yeah

SPEAKER_00:

so if a woman are you saying women are not rational no no no no that's what i used to phrase mostly

SPEAKER_01:

okay just

SPEAKER_00:

teasing when you say to me i mean i can see you you're physically your expression or Maybe you're quieter than usual or I can see on your face it looks like you're in some kind of strain. And I say, what's wrong? He says, I'm fine. Okay, I will take you for what you've said. But many times when I come back, yes, I said I'm fine. You didn't probe for that. And the man is like, how can I win? I asked the question, simple, straight. But you

SPEAKER_01:

know, you can see I'm not fine. So you should ask me what's wrong.

SPEAKER_00:

And I've asked you what's wrong and you said you're fine. I've asked a second time and you said you're fine. What am I supposed to do? Keep asking. That's the issue. Some men will probably ask two more times. And they're like, you know, when she's ready, she'll calm

SPEAKER_01:

down.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, and that might just diffuse. Or the man himself, and this is what people forget. Everybody is in a mental state of health at every point in time now that mental state can be very healthy or not healthy yeah so someone asking you you're asking your spouse what's wrong It already presupposes I've left what are my own concerns. I'm trying to, you know, reach out to this person to find out what's going on. But many times when people want things done in a particular way, they forget everything else and they just focus on on this singular like you say oh i want this man to do something focus on one singular thing whereas the man is probably thinking look be that as i mean this issue you're focusing on book you're forgetting that this is tied to b and c and d so dealing with what you call a can be, but it's easier done when we've dealt with the other three. By the time we've dealt with this other two, this one gets resolved. Okay. You confused me towards the end there. Okay. Let me try and think of a practical example. Yeah. When it comes to things like, let's say Money, just as an example. Someone wants to spend on the spur of the moment. Another person is thinking, yes, I can see why you want to spend, but I'm thinking three weeks ahead.

SPEAKER_01:

This

SPEAKER_00:

expense now might create a challenge in three weeks' time. So can we spend this? At that time, that person who wants that thing done at that time is not thinking three weeks ahead. Possibly because in the structure of how they run their home, that party is not often responsible for doing the long-term thinking. So he or she is saying to them at that time, that's a desire that has not been met. Whereas this other person is thinking, yes, this desire may not be met, but in the grand scheme of things, if you're putting things on a scale of what is more important, I mean, like the square, Urgent, important, urgent, not important. Important, not urgent, not important, not urgent. If you put things like that, sometimes people are like, oh, come on, you're trying to run a home like a business. It's a business. We need to, and I think that's one of the things that I find, we need to bring quite a number of things we use at work or in our businesses. We need to bring some of them Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

There was something that popped in my mind when you were talking just now. I remember the story I was listening to. I think it was earlier on today of a couple, newly wed, and this was in America, and they'd gone up to the mountains for their honeymoon, and they were trying to set up a tent. And it was raining heavily, and they got into this argument. And the woman, I think the woman said her husband asked her if she was fine, and she was like, yeah, I'm fine. But what she wanted from him... He wasn't doing it, so she got angry. She stormed off in the storm and just walked off. And in her mind, she was thinking he would come after her. And in his mind, he was thinking, you know, when she's ready, she will come down and come back. So he continued with the tent, building the tent. And when she went for like about... 20 minutes she turned back I came back to him and then he was like okay you're back and she was like you didn't come after me you didn't come after me you know so I just yeah I just thought I'd drop that in somewhere there but at the end of the day when she came back they both apologized to one another and they talked it over and they sorted it out but do you think that there's some conflicts that are that cannot be resolved do you think there could ever be conflicts that cannot be resolved

SPEAKER_00:

I don't think there is any conflict that cannot be resolved. Okay. Why? It will depend on... I mean, put it this way. How strongly am I holding on to my position that I'm not ready to shift? Yeah. When you hear people say irreconcilable differences, it means both parties have pitched their tents in... particular areas and neither is willing to shift their grounds for whatever reasons

SPEAKER_01:

could it be mindset they have

SPEAKER_00:

two different mindsets it could be it could be one person feeling if i shift then i've been cheated and one party feeling I'm the man. No, I cannot change my position or for whatever reason. Irreconcilable references are all because both parties are refusing to shift. And they are seeing their positions as justified. At that point, there's nothing anyone can do. But can

SPEAKER_01:

they not both be right? Can they

SPEAKER_00:

not both be right? It's really not possible. For both of them to be right? I do not. Personally, I don't think both of them. When you say they are right, they might be right in their own views. And the reason why they are taking those hardline positions is because from their perspective, they are justified to stand their ground. One person is running on ego.

SPEAKER_01:

You

SPEAKER_00:

would always find that one person feels their ego will be bruised if they let go. And that's why they're not. Not because they are justified. Not because they are right.

SPEAKER_01:

So you believe that

SPEAKER_00:

every conflict can be resolved. Every conflict provided both parties want it resolved.

SPEAKER_01:

So what are the key ways of resolving conflicts that you can talk about? Are there any tips you can give to resolve conflict?

SPEAKER_00:

First thing is, resolve it at the earliest possible time. The longer it lingers, the more difficult it becomes. The longer, it's like, I mean, there's this favorite part of the word where I come, proverb, If you take two broomsticks, three broomsticks, even up to five, to break them, very easy, one snap. But take a whole bunch and it's almost impossible for you to just bend and one will break. And that's how conflict is. If you take them one by one, you could snap them and break them and resolve. In every relationship, that will always rub off one another the odd way, now and again. More often than not, subconsciously. But the moment I'm aware that I have wronged you or what I've done, I must be willing And that's where the issue is. Some people find it very difficult to say they're sorry. And if you cannot, if the word sorry is not in your dictionary, it's a matter of time. It's a matter of time.

SPEAKER_01:

So when you think it becomes time for the couple to seek outside help, if they have a conflict that they're finding difficult to resolve, when do you think it's time to to say, okay, you know what, let's get outside help. Let's get the help of professionals.

SPEAKER_00:

As soon as they're both ready. As soon as they're both ready? Yes. The reason is this. The moment it comes to the issue of professional help, one party, if both of them are ready, easy, easy, they will. But you'll find that one party... It's probably not as quick to respond to professional help as the other party proposing it.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's why I said when they're both ready, because you can force a horse to the river. You can't make it to drink.

SPEAKER_01:

I

SPEAKER_00:

can follow you to counseling, but that does not mean I'm going to listen to what the counselor is advising.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So where do we go from there? It's just a process. that's why i use the phrase ready because the readiness is both of them wanting to find a solution

SPEAKER_01:

okay

SPEAKER_00:

and they're both ready when they're both ready if one if one party is being dragged along it's just it's it's like an elastic it's going to break it's going to snap at some point you have to be it's the willingness and the readiness that is essential and if that willingness and readiness had been there even when things were very you know when they could have been resolved easily they won't get to that point

SPEAKER_01:

when they're ready yeah okay um but what what at what point as in if there's something going on in the marriage at what point will you say you know what we need to think, or would you start that conversation, or should the couple start that conversation of maybe less, before they even get to the stage of being ready, at what point should they start the conversation about going to see somebody else? What's in the marriage, what kind of things could be happening in the marriage that would be a trigger for them to say, okay, we need to start this conversation about going to seek extra help or additional help?

SPEAKER_00:

One, you find that by the time People need professional help. The communication has... I don't want to use the phrase. I don't want to say broken down. They're still communicating, but information is not passed across or what is not being received. Because you'll always find that every time there's a conflict and it's unresolved, it's because either what I'm saying, you're not hearing me. Because mean when when you look at when the bible says faith comes by hearing

SPEAKER_01:

and

SPEAKER_00:

hearing by the word of god yeah the the you have to hear what i'm saying until you hear what i'm saying it's not going to resonate with you it's not going to make sense so people can be talking but they're not hearing one another okay so it's at that point you start exactly But again, if someone is not hearing you in things that are not too difficult, when you say to them we need professional help, until they come to that place where they think, you know what, this is, this calls for. If they don't believe in it, if they don't think it's necessary, they won't go.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

They won't even accept that it's required.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Even within Christian marriages, you ask them, oh, look, maybe the man or the woman, one party speaks to, you know, maybe their pastor or a counselor, and the person they've spoken to says, okay, let's schedule an appointment and find out when both of you are available and let me slot it in my diary and we'll meet. And then one party goes to the other, look, I've gone to see X, Y, Z. When are you available? And the response you get is, I'm not available.

SPEAKER_01:

So what would you do in that kind of scenario?

SPEAKER_00:

What can you do? The best you can do is just pray that they would come around. Yes, you know, that things will, their eyes will become enlightened. They would see the damage the situation is causing them. with their relationship. And as long as they want to save it, because you see, we're all going on different assumptions. You're asking someone to go for counseling. That's on the backdrop that they really, really want to save the marriage.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. What if they don't?

SPEAKER_00:

What if they don't want to save the marriage?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

If they don't want to save the marriage, it takes two to tango. Except two people agree.

UNKNOWN:

Ah.

SPEAKER_01:

they

SPEAKER_00:

can't do anything everything is based on agreement it's based on communication that's why I said it's based on both parties hearing what the other party is saying

SPEAKER_01:

yeah so could the imperfections that we worry about you know that are causing all this conflict that we find in marriages could it be about something deeper

SPEAKER_00:

yeah it could be about several things deeper one So, I mean, when two people meet, everybody comes with their baggage. Now, each party may have several unresolved

SPEAKER_01:

issues.

SPEAKER_00:

I mean, I've had stories of people getting married because they wanted, well, men getting married because they wanted their wives to be their mother and their wife. you cannot put that responsibility on someone without actually making that person aware that's the role you want them to play in your life before you actually get married yeah so that's where so these are those are they had their own unresolved issues coming into the relationship the expectations that their wives has to be their mom because they never had a mother growing up their wife you know and when the woman comes in the weight is too much yeah She probably won't even realize it until several years down the line. And it's like, I can't meet this. Yeah. And actually, it can work both ways too. Exactly. It can work both ways. It could be the woman looking for a husband and a father.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And the expectations are too high. Yeah. So that's where... So because we all carry different baggages and... I mean, how many people will actually say, okay, look, I've met someone I want to marry. Let's sit down. Let me tell you all that has happened in my life. You can't tell all. Exactly. You can't tell all. So people have to have, you know, there has to be managed expectations. Everybody has to know the role. Each party is able to play in the relationship before going into it. What I want someone to do for me is different from what they are able to do for me. And I should not put a weight on them they are not able to carry.

SPEAKER_01:

But

SPEAKER_00:

you find people saying things like, but those are my needs. They are your needs, but is that person capable of meeting them?

SPEAKER_01:

So these are things that should be discussed even before they get married.

SPEAKER_00:

They are, but how open will people actually be? How open can people actually be? People can be open if they want

SPEAKER_01:

to be, but how open are

SPEAKER_00:

they

SPEAKER_01:

willing to be? Because sometimes it's very difficult to be vulnerable and people don't want

SPEAKER_00:

to be that vulnerable and expose themselves. You don't want to expose yourself too much that you now become... It's difficult for anyone to meet you where you want them to meet

SPEAKER_01:

you. So how do you think couples should embrace their spouse's imperfections

SPEAKER_00:

so that it reduces conflict? Know for themselves that they themselves are not perfect. So don't expect too much from... There are two individuals with several baggages coming from different backgrounds and And wanting to make this relationship go in the same direction. So you know that you are going to... People will have... I mean, you'll find out that... That's why they say every time you keep to... You learn new things about your spouse.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Because you never knew... I didn't know they had this idea before.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't know they had this before. So it's... When you find things that are... surprising, you should try and find out how it started. How did it build up to this? Because it's only when you understand that if there's anything you can do,

SPEAKER_01:

you

SPEAKER_00:

know where you can come in. And if there's nothing you can do, you say to the person, sorry, this, you have to get a professional help. for this i do not have the capability to deal with this so it's everything stems on how much like you said how how willing are we to be vulnerable with our spouses and what kind of communication do we have how is it open is it closed

SPEAKER_01:

okay so if for instance your spouse from day one does not like ironing clothes likes to throw their clothes in the wardrobe like that. And you like to iron clothes. For you, that's an imperfection. And maybe your partner is like, well, yeah, it doesn't. For me, it's no big deal. Such things bring about major irritations in marriage. Yes. And they are imperfections. How do you learn to live with that? Because the person may never change.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

So how do you learn to live with that?

SPEAKER_00:

You deal with it. When I say deal with it, if there's something you don't like to do and it's something that I would rather have done before we met, how was I dealing with it?

SPEAKER_01:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Was I ironing my clothes or did you go to the dry cleaners? Okay. Things can be very simple if we don't complicate them.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

If my clothes regularly went to the dry cleaners before I married, and then I married someone who does not like to iron. By the way, who says that a woman has to be the one that irons all the time? Ironing is painstaking.

SPEAKER_01:

It

SPEAKER_00:

takes time. It takes effort. It takes standing for long hours. So if I like to iron, I mean, if I was doing the ironing before I married, and I married someone who does not like to do the irony, I should take it as my responsibility to add her own to mine.

SPEAKER_01:

I am for both of you.

SPEAKER_00:

I am for both and hope that sooner than later, she would imbibe. What if she doesn't? If she doesn't, you carry on with it. This was something I was doing before I got married. And if I can't, if I'm finding it difficult to do, and it's something she doesn't like, and I want places to be tidy, then what do I do? Send the clothes. If I can afford them, afford to pay, send the clothes to the dry cleaners. Okay. Or you do it yourself. Or you do it yourself. It's not too difficult. It's just the fact that I probably feel now I'm married, I don't have to iron.

SPEAKER_01:

My wife can't do it. Or my husband can't do it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So it's just finding ways around the so-called imperfections. Exactly. Because that would lead to less conflict. Less conflict. Less arguments and less...

SPEAKER_00:

Provided one party is just not taking the other person for a ride. Because that's where some conflicts will always arise, where someone feels, now I think I'm being taken for granted. But If you ask the person, something must have triggered that thought. Because if I did it two years ago and three years ago, and now I think I'm being taken for granted, something has triggered that mental process. So what exactly made, why did I not think I was being taken for granted three years ago? Why is it now? I'm thinking I'll be taken for granted.

SPEAKER_01:

But it could be because couples evolve. That's true. Things change. Yes. Situations change. And so that might just be a reason why the way they feel about it now is different.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. Once you can identify what has caused the change in behavior, you know where the problem lies.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

That's the point where you now need to go to and deal with this so it does not continue to be a friction.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. I never know where the time goes when we start these conversations, but we have come to the end of another very interesting topic. It's something that we could go on and on and on about for a long time. But as always, I'd like to end this conversation podcast on the note of hope so what would you like to say to people out there couples who are battling with their own so called imperfections in their marriage which is leading to so much conflict what would you like to say to them to just encourage them and give them hope

SPEAKER_00:

it's about resolving issues as quickly as possible don't get hung up on too many things take things as lightly not Or

SPEAKER_01:

flippantly.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. Diffuse tension as quickly as possible. Don't let them build

SPEAKER_01:

up.

SPEAKER_00:

Laugh. Laugh as much as you can at yourselves, with yourselves. Make things... Don't let tension build up. Ease tension for one another. That's the only way. Because Life itself, there are many things that will challenge you. You don't want to add other things to it. And if I notice that you're not in the mood or whatever, I can give you space. That's another thing. Couples need to learn to give one another some

SPEAKER_01:

space. I think that's something that we need to talk about one of these

SPEAKER_00:

days. Give another one space. Not that you're going distance, but give space. Don't choke on another.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Give them space to be themselves. To be themselves, to breathe. Wow. Thank you so, so much for coming on another episode of Navigating the Chapters of Challenge. I'm sure you'll be back again sometime soon. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much and have a great day. And yeah, we just want to say thank you to everyone for listening in again today. If you've listened and you've enjoyed this, please support the show as much as you can. Please share the link for the podcast to as many people as possible. Help us promote Navigating the Chapters of Challenge. And if you can support us financially too, that would be great. you can just click on the support the show button that is on wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast from and yeah support us we would be grateful so take care God bless see you some other time well see you not see you but hopefully you'll be with us again sometime soon take care God bless and bye bye