Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Tele

Unlocking the Secrets to Lasting Love: Expert Advice from Dr. Wole & Dami

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In this insightful episode, Dr. Wole Olarinmoye and his wife Dami, with over 25 years of marital experience and a deep background in marriage counselling, delve into the realities of marriage beyond the fairy-tale preconceptions. Drawing from their vast knowledge and expertise as marriage mentors, they explore the key challenges that couples face and share practical tips to overcome them.

Key topics include:

  • Understanding common marriage challenges and why they arise.
  • Marriage tips for maintaining a healthy and thriving relationship.
  • The importance of mutual commitment and how to put in the work for a lasting marriage.
  • Proven strategies to prevent marriage breakdown and foster emotional connection.
  • Insights from their three co-authored books on marriage.

Whether you are newlyweds or a seasoned couple, this episode provides vital steps to navigate the complexities of marriage and build a strong, enduring partnership. Tune in to gain actionable advice that could transform your relationship.

#MarriageChallenges #MarriageTips #HealthyRelationships #MarriageCounseling #MarriageAdvice

Books by Dr Wole & Dami Olarinmoye
Marriage Lessons: Practical Tips for a Successful Marriage Volume1

Marriage Lessons - II: Protecting and Restoring Your Marriage: Volume2













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UNKNOWN:

so

SPEAKER_02:

Hello and welcome to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Tele. Today I've got my friends in the house with me, Dr. Wole and Dami Olarimui and I'm so, so, so excited to have them in the house because they're just one of those couples that I absolutely love and they know that. I hope they know that. So I'm just going to ask them to introduce themselves. I'm going to ask Dr. Wole to introduce himself and I'll ask Dami to also introduce herself and we'll take it from there. So Dr. Wole, say hello to everybody.

SPEAKER_01:

Hi everyone. It's an absolute a privilege to be here today. It's just a wonderful opportunity. We've known Telly for years and so this is really exciting to be on her podcast. My name is Wale and Dami and I do a bit of marriage counselling together and it's a privilege to have been invited to come and speak. And I'll stop there and let Dami

SPEAKER_02:

introduce

SPEAKER_01:

herself. So Dami,

SPEAKER_02:

introduce yourself to everybody. So I'm Dami, like Willie said. It's a privilege and an honour to be here to support Sister Telly. And we're so glad for today. And yeah, we've been married for over 26 years and we enjoy... talking about marriage.

SPEAKER_00:

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02:

Excellent. That was my next question. How long have you been married? So Dami has answered my next question. So how did you meet? Before we go into the topic of marriage and everything, how did you meet? Just out of curiosity.

SPEAKER_01:

We actually met, we were attending the same university fellowship. So I was in the UCH Christian fellowship at the time and Dami came to do her midwifery in UCH. We met then. We didn't know each other initially. Someone introduced us We just started off as friends and eventually friendship blossomed into really close friendship and then romance and it kicked off from there. So there's probably a very long spiritual story behind that, but that's it in a nutshell.

SPEAKER_02:

Dami, is that your recollection of what happened? Oh yes, it's true. He was already in medical school and was already part of the fellowship. So I finished my nursing, then proceeded to do my midwifery and join them in the fellowship. And here's this young, little Bible studies teacher, you know, and then we just became very, very good friends. We had the same vision, so to say. We realized that we were really passionate about things of God. At that time, it wasn't really about marriage. It was just about the fact that, oh, I just love somebody that knows the word, and I wanted to grow in my Christian faith, and then we just became very good friends. We used to share the Bible together and then ask a lot of questions, and then Here you are, 26 years after. Whatever happened in between. Whatever happened in between. And I forgot to mention at the top that Dr. Wale and Dami are the authors of actually four books, I think.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, see, I've lost count. Five in all. Five in all books. I think we've written three together. Okay. or two together and then but five books in all

SPEAKER_02:

but there's one that stands out for me because my daughter absolutely loves that book and I think she attended one of the I think it was a conference or something. You had a workshop you had for young people years ago and you gave her a copy of that book and she held that book so dearly to her heart. And the book is called Married Lessons, Practical Tips for a Successful Marriage. Yes, absolutely. They're authors. So at the end of the podcast, I'll put a list of all the books and you can always go out and check them out. So today we're going to be talking about marriage and difficulties in marriage, challenges in marriage. Today's episode So there's going to be more of a general one, but we'll just let the Holy Spirit lead us as we go along. And the first question I wanted to ask you, and I'm going to ask you one after the other, what is the biggest misconception about marriage?

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, that's an interesting question. The biggest misconception about marriage is, in my opinion, is the fact that it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_02:

It's

SPEAKER_01:

very tough. It's a labor. It's a struggle. We get married because we have to. Society expects us to get married, so we then get married. But you have to labour through it, endure it, because that's what's expected of you. But actually, marriage is to be enjoyed,

SPEAKER_02:

not

SPEAKER_01:

to be endured.

SPEAKER_02:

Dami, what about you? What do you think? Yes, I think I would agree with what Wolea said. It's just the fact that people think marriage doesn't work. Perhaps it's because of the way society has portrayed it. you know, now. But what they... fail to realise is just that the people who are not getting it right are the ones that are shouting the loudest. Marriage, you know, it's still beautiful and marriage works. But then that misconception is what is underlining in the society to be like, oh, it doesn't work. You know, people are getting out of it. So why am I going to go into it? Why I ask that question is because I heard a quote on one of the podcasts I was listening to this week. And it was a quote by Sarah Jake Roberts, and she said that the church idolizes marriage and it doesn't matter if it is good or not. What do you think about that statement?

SPEAKER_01:

I can understand where she's coming from because I have a bit of a bugbear about that.

SPEAKER_02:

If

SPEAKER_01:

a marriage is going through a challenging time,

SPEAKER_02:

as

SPEAKER_01:

long as the couple are still living in the same house together, many leadership authorities assume that that things are okay but actually they could just be living as tenants or as co-parents rather than actually having a good marriage and so we don't have to wait until we're not supposed to wait until somebody's moving out of the house or we hear that somebody has hit somebody or somebody slapped somebody before we recognize the fact that there is an issue in the marriage And that might be what she's alluding to, you know, and sometimes you go to some, you know, some leaders for counselling and all they try to do is just keep things going, just stay there,

SPEAKER_02:

do

SPEAKER_01:

whatever he wants, do whatever she wants and just stay there without addressing. the fundamental issues that will help the couple get back on track to enjoying their marriage rather than just enduring it and just hanging in there because we're supposed to. So that might be what she's alluding to.

SPEAKER_02:

Any thoughts, Damiana? Yes, idolizing marriage. I know that perhaps... those people have a traditional concept and background about marriage. So they believe that, well, our parents, many of them, not all of them had very good marriage, but they kept it going. So why can't you keep it going? Like what they said. Yes, if... you know, it's good to idolize in that sense to say marriage should never end. It should be a continual thing. But it's not enough to just wish that it continues. It is very vital and very important that we get to the nitty gritty to see what are the issues that people are having and encourage them or give them the right support to make it better. Because marriage should not be endured. It should be enjoyed. You can imagine if your married and you're going to live 50 years with this person. So are you going to live a miserable life for 50 years?

SPEAKER_01:

But that's what some people end up doing. Yes, so it

SPEAKER_02:

is wrong in that sense to say, oh, marriage is good, so just stay there. Yes, it is good, we encourage it and we believe in it, but it must be done properly. So people should be given the right support and foundations to build on.

SPEAKER_01:

I guess that's what she was alluding to by saying that it's idolized whether it's good or bad. because it's like oh it's a taboo to have a broken marriage which we understand and it's not ideal yes but then some people to avoid that taboo will stay suffering in the marriage they're being beaten black and blue they're being abused but will stay there because they're idolizing marriage and what we're saying is yes we do believe that marriage should as much as possible be embraced but not at the expense of your life not the expense of what's happening to you, the better way is actually for them to seek some form of support and counselling, address the issues and get back to a place where they're enjoying their

SPEAKER_02:

marriage. So in your years of mentoring couples, what would you say are the main issues that affect a lot of marriages? What are the issues that you've seen reoccurring in couples that you mentor? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I think for us, I think one of the underlying themes that we've seen is that very few couples have problems in their marriage that weren't there at the beginning.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Most challenges that you see in marriages were there at the beginning. At the

SPEAKER_02:

beginning.

SPEAKER_01:

They were either ignored, swept under the carpet, or glossed over, ill-addressed. And when these things came back to bite, that's when people started getting worried or getting stressed. But actually those problems were there. So for us, a big thing... is preparation, foundation. I think if a couple can be prepared before they go into marriage, properly prepared, if they have the right foundation, going to marriage with the right reasons, having the right expectations, having the right understanding about what marriage really is, we will have less trouble today. Marriage has been very romanticized. And so people think about falling in love and falling out of love. And actually marriage, the real love that sustains a marriage is commitment. That commitment, I will stick with this person through thick and thin, sickness and illness, whatever it is, whatever you're going through, I will be there for you. That is the commitment that sustains the marriage. Other things we build into it. But if that commitment isn't there, and if people think, well, okay, you look good today, so I like you. You don't look so good tomorrow, so actually I don't like you anymore. That would not happen. So I think the right preparation, the right foundation, the right expectations, I think are lacking in a lot of marriages today.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Dami, you said illness. Addressed issues. Can you give me a practical example? So somebody has seen that, okay, when they are maybe going out or dating, that's what the society knows now. When they are dating, this person is not very, the way they communicate with them is not right. Maybe they are brushed down or they are told to keep quiet or they don't even listen. These things are there. maybe let's say the woman has noticed it, but maybe it's just that he's tired. It's just that, oh, maybe it's not a good day for him. Maybe it's me that is even cautioning it. Maybe it's, you know, it's something that they need to sit down and say, why is it that when I speak to you, this is the way you address things? Because that is the pattern. It needed to be addressed. And if she's felt that she hasn't addressed it and is not changing, then it's something to be aware that, can I live with this? Because if this, people don't change. And that is one thing people need. I mean, it's fundamental. People never change. We can improve a bit, but people fundamentally do not change. So if you are talking to me rudely, you don't listen to what I'm saying, you don't consider my opinion, you feel women are less than you, then That is an issue to be addressed.

SPEAKER_01:

Why would that be different when they get married? It's not

SPEAKER_02:

going to be different. It's not going to be different because if at that stage that you are still courting, so to say, or dating, where you're supposed to still be, you know, hiding and be full of love and attention for this, whoever it is you're going to marry. you are behaving like this, it's going to be worse when you get married. Because when you're not like yourself, you've won the person over. There's nothing else. So then you just even completely open more. So if those things are not, you'd be surprised what people tell you. There was one case that we had that was the other way around. The lady was abusing the man, slapping him before they got married. Before they got married? Before they got married. Is it three times? He reported to us on three occasions. And he still married her? So things like that. And then he got married. Of course it got worse. He was being beaten, you know, real thorough beating. And it could be the other way around. It might be the woman. Some people, they will have been slapped once or the other. And then they will still proceed into the marriage without addressing that. They'll be like, oh, I made him hungry. So it was my fault. So things that I needed to be... Well, why do you think that's the case? Why do you think that people are being... I mean, like this case, a man being abused before... Marrying a woman Why Why do you think he Actually went ahead Into that marriage Because I don't understand I'm trying to understand The reasoning behind it

SPEAKER_01:

Because people get married For different reasons

SPEAKER_02:

Okay

SPEAKER_01:

Okay so Traditionally those of us who are firm Christians believe that God brings a couple together but in this day and age people get married for different reasons people get married for financial reasons

SPEAKER_02:

people

SPEAKER_01:

get married for immigration reasons people get married for trophy wife reasons she looks pretty and so I want her by my side that sort of thing that's why we talked about foundation why are you together what's drawing you to this person why do you feel this is the person for you and why When those questions are not properly answered, when the foundation is shaky, just as the scriptures say, when the foundation, you know, what can the righteous do? The foundation is destroyed. If the foundation is shaky, then the building upon which we're, you know, the marriage upon which we're building on this foundation will also be shaky.

SPEAKER_02:

It will be shaky.

SPEAKER_01:

And so these are some of the reasons. And that's why we said very rarely have we seen a couple with a marital challenge that that challenge in some way wasn't possible. present before they got married.

SPEAKER_02:

So what are the things that couples should be looking out for in terms of the foundation that they're building on? Okay, let's say there's a couple they're dating or courting, whichever word works. What should they be, what are the trigger points? What should they be looking at and saying, this is a red flag. This is something that I need to work on. This is something, Dami is giving an example, but what are the Examples, can we talk about?

SPEAKER_01:

So, you know, when we started doing this whole marriage thing journey, we tried to do a bit of reading and develop ourselves. And some people talk about certain characteristics that a healthy marriage should have. Because essentially, the question you're asking is, you know, this is what a healthy marriage should look like. If you then feel that the person you're partnering with is not going to help you or support you or partner with you in that journey journey, of becoming or having a healthy marriage, then you need to be putting question marks on

SPEAKER_02:

this.

SPEAKER_01:

One is commitment. If this person doesn't have a track record of commitment, so for example, many people try to tame men who had been fooling around, for example. and all of a sudden you think, okay, I've got him, you know, he will change. Well, you know, if he wasn't really able to change before marriage, what's going to make him change? Now, that doesn't apply so much to those of us of a Christian background because obviously that is something that's expected. Fidelity is something that's expected. But for people who are not of faith, if a person was fooling around before marriage and, you know, was always having a different woman every season or, what's the guarantee that that's going to change once they get married? So commitment is one. Communication is another. How does this person communicate? Do they only communicate in a particular way for you? How do they treat other people around them? How do they treat people who are lesser than them? How do they relate with people who are, for example, cleaners or domestic staff? If they treat them disparagingly or don't treat them with respect, then at some point that characteristic is going to come out. How do they settle conflict? When they're upset, when they're angry, what do they do? How do they behave? They may be very calm most times, but when they get angry, are they biting people's heads off? These are a few things. So I've talked about commitment, communication, conflict, abuse. If there are people who you've noticed are already showing signs of abusing you, emotional abuse or the way they deal with you financially, there's so many things, you know, that you talk about friendship. One of the things that we believe in is that every couple should have at least a foundation of friendship.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Because let's be honest. I mean, this is, this is an adult thing. We're not going to be spending 24 hours a day having sex.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, definitely.

SPEAKER_01:

There's, there's, there's more. There's

SPEAKER_02:

no energy for that anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

As, as you know, There's more to marriage than, oh, we're jumping into bed, we're having sex all the time. There's got to be some basis for friendship. There's got to be some basis of relationship. And if that isn't there, if we're just together because we look good together or together because we have children together, together because we have a business together, at some point, all that's going to fall away. You know, Dami likes to tell the story about... very often we sit down and we will just talk for hours. Even this morning, you know, we both planned, we had some certain projects that we're working on individually and we plan to do that. We woke up this morning and we just felt like chatting. And before you knew it, it was what, 12 o'clock, you know, from about six o'clock when we woke up, we'd just been sharing fellowship, just chatting, just gisting, just catching up. And if you're not good friends, that's not something you can do so that's just a few things I mean I know Dami has some other things that she wants to do but that's just a few things

SPEAKER_02:

before Dami goes on I just wanted to say just drop this in because it just made me realise why I like you guys so much because yourself and Dami are just like my husband and I we can talk for hours and then repeating the same thing we've talked about 20 years ago and we also started off as friends for years we were friends for like almost 4 years before we even started dating so I think that foundation of friendship is really important sorry Dami I just had to say that I would just add that I mean, in the sense that if you are not even friends, that is a red flag to me because you should not be proceeding into a relationship with somebody that is not your friend. And you hear it these days. Oh, I can't marry him. He's my friend. That's the person you're supposed to marry. That's the person you should marry. Because you want to wake up. You try to... adjust for your friends you try to support your friends you try to accommodate your friends you don't forget your friends birthday you are there for them when they call you so Who should be living the rest of your life with you? Your friend. It should be your friend. So just hit on it.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

It should be. You should be marrying your friend. So if you are in a relationship with somebody and you can see that you're two entities that you don't even look forward to each other. Like the only time you meet and you think it's romantic is when we go to the movie together. And then perhaps some people that are not Christian when they start having sex, they think, oh, that's it. We're good. We are compatible. No, you're not. You have not even addressed it. They're not friends. And then another thing is see their relationship with, somebody said, if you want to see how a man will treat you, look at his relationship with any woman figure in his life, his mom, his sister, you know, another friend. See the way they teach, they treat them. That will tell you that that's going to be you sometimes, you know, in the future. Likewise, the woman, look at how she honor, behave around people, treat people with respect. That is the way that woman will treat you as well. So a lot of people don't look at some of these factors. Look at their relationship with money. When you talk about things, when you talk about the future, do you know where they work? Do you know how much they earn? Do you know things like that? So look at their relationship with money because money is as well an important factor in every relationship. So if you start seeing that they are My money, my money. I don't have money all the time. These are red flags. Be careful. They are always asking you to borrow them your money or use your own money to do things while they will give you back. I never did. Red flags.

SPEAKER_01:

Something else I also want to add. We're all different. And we all have different requirements in marriage. If this person you're partnering with makes you uncomfortable in an area which is your own personal requirement, then Think about it. It may not be a reason to not proceed with the relationship, but you need to make your peace with it. Because one of the things that we normally tell young couples to ask is if this person never changed, if this person stayed as they are, would I still be happy? Because another thing is a lot of people go into marriage thinking, oh, I don't like that about him, but I'll change him. I don't like that about him, but I'll change him. I can't change anybody. You can't change anyone. So if they stayed as they are, would I be comfortable with that? And if you think, actually, I cannot stand that thing in his life, or I cannot stand that thing in her life, and if they don't change, I wouldn't be happy. then you should question whether or not you should be progressing into

SPEAKER_02:

marriage. You said something earlier about emotional, if there's like some kind of emotional abuse and I want to touch on that because I think this is an area that a lot of people don't seem to, they can't identify it. A lot of people are not able to identify emotional abuse in a relationship. Can you talk on that a bit and how people can identify that this is not right, this is a form of emotional abuse and maybe I should be a considering this relationship.

SPEAKER_01:

How does this person make you feel? Do you feel loved? Or do you feel threatened? Or do you feel harassed? Do you feel abused? If you're with someone who doesn't make you feel loved, then you need to ask the question, well, why am I here? Because we're looking at this for the long haul. And a lot of people conflict certain things. So a lot of people don't want to be alone. And because they don't want to feel lonely, as a result of that, they attach themselves to a relationship. But in that relationship, they don't feel loved They don't feel valued. They don't feel encouraged. Why are you there? And all those are mini signs of abuse. Because if a person isn't showing you love, if you're feeling each time you're with this person, you come away from them feeling like you have to recover. or you come away from them feeling like you need to sort yourself out or you need to readjust your headspace, then living with them or living a lifetime with them will take an energy of you having to recover and sort yourself out. Those are red flags that you need to think about. So I think emotional abuse can be very subtle. The way you're spoken to, the way you're treated, the way you're made to feel. You should be made to feel valued. You should be made to feel encouraged. You should think about this person and think, oh, this person adds to my life.

SPEAKER_00:

I

SPEAKER_01:

think somebody once said something. If your spouse has not improved or has not developed in most areas of their life since they've been with you, then you've not done a good

SPEAKER_02:

job.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think, in a sense, if you're not adding to someone, you're probably taking away from them. So if you don't feel that this spouse of yours or this relationship of yours is adding to you, then question it.

SPEAKER_02:

Those are signs. of abuse in whatever form, when you feel that you are always made to feel that you are always wrong. It's you that have to change. There's something about you. There's something maybe, you know, they might say, oh, it's the way you communicate. That is the reason why I do what I do. You made me do this. They don't take responsibility for their actions. They blame it on you. those are signs of abuse. And you need to start watching out for the... Yes. Or if they make you feel like you're incompetent, everything you do is wrong. Absolutely. And they are always right. Exactly. I think those are... Because a lot of people overlook these things. And I think one of yours said it, that if you think they're going to change, they're not going to change. Because if it's a fundamental flaw... It's not going to change. That's who they are. That's who they are. Okay, so I wanted us to move on to specific issues in marriage that could be problematic. So I had a question here. So how do you deal with a spouse who is constantly irritating you? I won't change. Give me practical tips on how you would deal if your spouse is constantly doing something that irritates the life out of you. You love the person, yeah, but...

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, that's an interesting one. Again, remember we're all different. And one of the things we like to say is that No one will be 100% exactly what you want. If everyone was like that, then you'd probably be getting somebody who's exactly like you. And actually, you'll probably irritate yourself if you're with yourself all the time. All

SPEAKER_02:

the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

But if it's something that's really getting to you, have a conversation about it. And one of the things, the other things we like to say is not what you say. It's how you say it. It's how you bring up the topic and help the person to see that, look, it's not that necessarily what you're doing is wrong or what you're doing is bad, but this is just how it affects me.

UNKNOWN:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_01:

um so we're reaching a stage in life where um dami likes the fan on all the time oh tell me about that um and you know i'm here hugging the duvet and she's got the fan on because she's got this internal generator that's generating heat you know and on the one hand i could feel irritated you know but that's where understanding comes in we've got to learn to put ourselves in other people's positions and other people's situations especially our spouse and so have a conversation so we've had a conversation and so there's a way the fan is angled so it blows more in one direction you know little things like that can make a big difference I think have the conversation try to see the other person's perspective understand why they do what they do it might be their background they've always done that that's how they grew up that's what they know no one has ever pointed it out before you're the first person to say this is wrong or i don't like this and as far as they know well you're the wrong person so it's a case of okay fine if this gets to you that much because of how much i love you let's try and find other ways we can do this um or other ways we can adjust and and as a result of that make sure that we keep the love going so that that sort of the fundamental principle. But I think the different specifics will determine what it is. But fundamentally, it's a case of both of you sitting down, having a conversation, identifying what the real issue is. So, you know, when we talk about conflict resolution, we talk about what we call the five S's. We talk about, you know, stop. So let's all stop first. You know, what's causing this irritation or why are we having this irritation? Let's find the right time to have this conversation. Let's understand exactly what's going on. Then we talk about shine. Let's shine a light. Why is this issue causing an issue? Why do you feel irritated by this issue? Why do I feel this is something I have to keep on doing? Then let's sit. Let's sit down. Let's have a conversation. You know, it's not about pointing out who's wrong. It's not about blame. It's about trying to understand the other person's perspective and as a team trying to work out what the best solution is. Then we talk about smooth, which is about, you know. I might have hurt you maybe in the way I have maybe disregarded what you've said or in the way I haven't considered your feelings so there needs to be forgiveness and understanding and appreciation and then we start again you know let's okay put a plan into motion adjust the fan point it in a particular direction let's see if that works for both of us if not then we might need to angle the fan a little bit more or we might need to have this conversation again but it's about both of us understanding so usually we use that we use that ourselves on a regular basis we teach that to people and that usually helps and helps people work through whatever source of conflict or irritation might be

SPEAKER_02:

arising. I've never heard that before, but I really like that. So stop,

SPEAKER_01:

shine,

SPEAKER_02:

sit, smooth, and start. Start afresh. Start afresh. Start afresh.

SPEAKER_01:

Wipe the slate clean. Start afresh. Let's implement things. Let's do what we need to do. And we can always go through the cycle again.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay. Whoa. For me, that's an eye-opener, and I'm going to implement that in my marriage. Dami, anything else you wanted to add on that one? I think he said... but it's just to stress that you cannot escape marriage without understanding how to communicate communication is like a blood supply to your marriage if it is broken the marriage will have issues. Just like we see in the body. If there is blood supply, shortage of blood supply to the brain, the person will have a stroke. If there's a shortage of blood supply to the heart or blockage of it, the person will have a heart attack. And the same if it goes to any part of the body, that part of the body will suffer and start to die. So we cannot escape sitting down and discussing things. But the most important factor also in communication is not what you say. It is how you say it. How you say it. Because if your spouse feels that all the time you talk to me, you say it rudely, you don't consider it, they will not listen. Yeah, that's true. And that thing will continue to perpetuate itself. You can't reach them because they will put a wall. Yeah. Even if they don't answer you when you talk, already there is a wall. There is a wall. And if they talk to you and shout back, there is a wall as well. There is a wall. So it's important to learn and engage individual's pulse is unique to them. I would say to women, learn your husband. Study. Study your husband. Know what you can say. And vice versa. Yes. And your wife too. You know, know how to talk to them. Because the way I would talk to a little public, the way you talk to your husband, you know, I know what to say and how to say that you will listen. And when to say it. And when to say it. Yeah, when is important as well. Exactly. Because sometimes you feel, oh, it's fine. I'll just say it. That is what is on my mind. then you're not going to get to him. No. You're going to continue to struggle. Yeah. So it is important that that is taken care

SPEAKER_01:

of. There's something else you like sharing sweetheart about dying to self. Do you want to just say something about that? That's really important.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think sometimes we we the way we navigate marriage is wrong. Because if your husband keeps doing something over and over, sometimes you might just die to that thing. Accept. Acceptance is also very, very important. Because if you don't accept, it might be something that they cannot change. That is who they are. So you just have to accept because you are not perfect. You are not perfect because there will be something that they too have identified that may be like, I wish you could change that. But it's something that is like me, Wole doesn't like to talk much. I talk. So if he's telling me, you know what, I want to reduce the way you talk when we're together. You talk a lot. But it's him I talk to. So it's going to be challenging because I'm like, oh. But I don't ask that of you, honey. I'm just saying, you know, there are other things. That would be impossible

SPEAKER_01:

for

SPEAKER_02:

you. Exactly. Exactly. You cannot change that. You cannot change that. That's who she is. And you too. I mean, I remember there was a time I used to say, talk. And then after a while, I'll say a few things. Maybe if I, I'll be talking for about five, 10 minutes, I'll say, okay, I've been talking a while now. Okay. Well, he says something like, no, no, no, but just like listening to your voice. I said, no, no, no, no. It's your turn to talk. After I just realized that, you know what? That's just who he is. That's just who he is. So I'm just giving, that's a positive example, but there might be something that is really annoying. It might be that, oh, they drop their clothes all the time on the floor. And you're like, can you just pick up your clothes after you? Can you just pick up your clothes? And they're not doing it. You know, it might be just That is, they will never, like somebody said, this same man you marry, his mother, for maybe you got married to him at 27, he was 27 when you got married to him. Or 30. Or 30. And he's been throwing his clothes on the floor. For three decades. For three decades. And his mother could not change him. And he loves his mother. And you think you, coming from where? Two days after you want to change him. You better accept it and say, you know what, God, I thank you. This is it. I'm going

SPEAKER_01:

to... Provided it's not a major thing. Yeah, I was going to say that. We don't want to give the impression that you have to accept every negative thing. And I'm happy we've talked about things like abuse and stuff like that. So that's not to be accepted. That needs to be dealt with. Provided it's not a major thing. But there's some things like, oh, it irritates me because he presses the toothpaste in the middle or it irritates me because he forgets to close the toilet. Yes, those can be irritating, but they're not major significant things. Yeah, they're not life-changing things. Exactly. And if this person is ticking Okay. So what if the

SPEAKER_02:

spark in the marriage is has gone out and there's burnout in the marriage. How do you address that? How do couples address that?

SPEAKER_00:

Because when

SPEAKER_02:

you're getting married, you're excited. It's this honeymoon stage, the first few years. And then as the children come in, commitment of work and all of that, there's a bit of a

SPEAKER_00:

lull.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's the word. How do you deal with that? How should couples deal with that? Go back to what you used to do before.

SPEAKER_00:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. Kick off.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, go back to what you used to do. What were you doing when there was a spark? Revisit it. Okay. Go back to it. Maybe before, you used to sit down together and chat. Maybe every evening you have dinner together. But now, oh, we need to go to school. We need to pick this one. We need to pick that one. Lesson this. Da-da-da-da-da. Find time to reconnect again. Find time to reconnect again. Maybe you used to take time maybe every one weekend in a month and you do something together as a couple. Maybe you take a stroll or do whatever it is you do. Find time to do those things again. Whatever it is in your own case. make sure you revisit it. That's the way I would say.

SPEAKER_01:

No, carry on. I think there was just something that was, yeah. Please carry on.

SPEAKER_02:

No, I finished.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So yes, essentially like what Dami said, there were certain things that you were doing when there was a spark. So what were those things? taking walks together. And they don't have to be expensive things, taking walks together. I remember we were watching an episode of, sometimes we watch all this Love is Blind, just to see how people think about relationships. And, you know, I think there was one particular couple that in order to recreate their spark, they were having to take things like helicopter rides and picnics. And I was thinking, if you have to do such big things to maintain a small spark in your relationship, there's no mileage in that relationship. Obviously, they split up. And it's about, this is where friendship comes in, because friends can just sit down together and chat. And just chat. About mundane things. Exactly. And that retains the connection. But like Dami said, it's going back to doing those things that created the spark. You're spending time together. And one of the things that we do recommend is having a daily catch up.

SPEAKER_02:

Daily catch up.

SPEAKER_01:

On a daily basis, have just some time together. It might be first thing in the morning. It might be when you come back from work. Or during a

SPEAKER_02:

break.

SPEAKER_01:

Or during break. Five

SPEAKER_02:

minutes.

SPEAKER_01:

By God's grace, till today, we've been doing this for, gosh, probably decades now. Every lunchtime, we catch up. It might be one minute. It might be ten minutes. We might be talking until somebody knocks on my door and says, oh, doctor. Okay, you know, I've got to go now. But we do that. And that's in addition to the fact that we chat in the morning. And in addition to that, we're still going to chat plenty at night but we just keep in contact during the day as well we know what

SPEAKER_02:

is happening in each other's

SPEAKER_01:

life now so it's about maintaining that daily contact it's about also having what we also call a weekly date night you know on a regular basis, having some time to just be away and connect. And you don't have to always go to the cinema. It could be a case of putting the kids to bed and this is mummy and daddy's time, you know, once a week where we just, we're with each other. We're not doing anything with anybody else. Phones are off. It's just us. And we also recommend as much as possible having a time when you have a chat about how are things in our relationship? You know, what do we need to do different? What can we do better? But also keeping the spotlight means making time for sex that's also very important a lot of people they get tired they get stressed and sex slips away at a point in time in our lives we had to work sex into the diary so I used to look forward to Tuesdays

SPEAKER_02:

I used

SPEAKER_01:

to look forward to Tuesdays it was Tuesday and Fridays

SPEAKER_02:

oh wow

SPEAKER_01:

thank God because we felt it was important because life was so busy Damien was doing training I was doing training there were young children it felt very easy to just let all that slip by and without putting specific connection points in place, that connection was going.

SPEAKER_00:

And

SPEAKER_01:

obviously, the weaker the connection, the less the relationship. Before you know it, you start snapping at each other, you get upset with each other and things just spiral out of

SPEAKER_02:

control. There was a time we even... Put it that we'll be having a shower together. Okay. Every single morning. Okay. Because at that time, Molly was so busy with this training. I was doing training. The girls were young from one thing to the other. By the time it's evening, everybody just want to go to bed. Yeah. So it's like, you know what? By the time I come back, I can't even open my mouth to talk to you. And you are already snoring anyway. So, you know, every morning, I remember then if whoever gets up first, get up. We need to shower. No, no, no. We need to go now. Even in the days that I'm not working, we'll shower together. Because when we were there, we were able to talk. We could talk. I said, oh, how was your day? Oh, okay. Oh, okay. Do my back. Okay, do my leg. And then we were chatting at the same time. And then as we were dressing up, we were just, okay, have a lovely day and then go. And then we know that we had connected in the morning. It was that significant to us because we knew, it was one of those times that we had, is it monthly check-up? And we just said, look, we've not had time for each other for so long. It looked like years for us, even though it's just a few weeks, we were like, this is terrible. So that was what we sat down to do. We need to put this down. And we did that.

SPEAKER_01:

And it's different for different couples. But whatever it is, find something that connects you, that both of you agree to. And at that time, showering every morning together was our connecting point. working sex into the diary. And I've heard people say, well, that's not very romantic. It's a connecting point. I feel

SPEAKER_02:

like I've become romantic.

SPEAKER_01:

It does. You're looking forward to it. You know that, okay, fine. We clear the schedule. Somebody's booking a meeting. Nope, not available. On Tuesday. Not available on Tuesday. On Friday. No way. I'm sorry. Forget that. Not happening. Oh, no, no. But this person wants to see you. Tough.

UNKNOWN:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

I've seen my wife. Because that was our connecting point.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so sometimes you have to fight for your marriage. And it's not just about fighting for a marriage when there are problems. Yeah. It's about fighting to also keep your marriage at a good level. And those are some of the things that help to keep the spark in the marriage. And so going back to what you were doing before, making sure you have connecting points, putting things in place that you need to do, putting things in the diary, date nights in the diary, sex in the diary, spending time together in the diary, that sort of forces your marriage to still operate in the way it should rather than allowing things to slip

SPEAKER_02:

away. I've always said date... It doesn't have to be something expensive. Yeah. You know, I can count how many times, well, we naturally don't really like eating out so much. At some point, we're doing it maybe once a month or something like that. But sometimes it's just about even when the girls were young, put them to bed. Okay, everybody goes to bed at 8 p.m. with their bedtime. Once they've gone, we know that today is Tuesday. So we sit down, we eat together, we talk, and then, of course, whatever then happens after. The build-up. It starts early in the day. Exactly. So it's something like that. We could even do anything together. So people should not think, oh, this date night, we can't afford it, we don't have childcare, we don't have support. You can make it within your own house. The most important is that connection. Being together. Connection. I think what you guys are talking about is being intentional about it. Absolutely. Being very intentional about it. And what you said also resonates with me as well because with us, when the children were young, we made sure every day they were in bed by eight. We didn't care whether there was screaming or crying. Eight o'clock, you're in bed. And that was because we needed to have time just sit down and just chat you know just unwind connect we also don't we're not big on going to the cinema we don't even do any date night we don't have date night in our diary but we sit down and watch movies together good we like to watch soapy movies together why not whatever connects you we love that we just sit down we just talk about it and chat you know just have fun but that's what works for us and exactly like what you guys said find what works for

SPEAKER_01:

you you know as a couple and then

SPEAKER_02:

do those things and just connect whatever makes you connect

SPEAKER_01:

so the thing to do is make sure you're doing something like you said being intentional the wrong thing to do is just allow life to happen to

SPEAKER_02:

you or waiting for the big

SPEAKER_01:

or

SPEAKER_02:

when we have time or when we have money or when we go on holiday going on holiday is nice but it's not

SPEAKER_01:

everyday life it's too infrequent to be the answer to your connecting in

SPEAKER_02:

a marriage okay we're slowly coming to the end of the show because But I want us to talk on something that's very, very important. And I think Dami mentioned it earlier, finances and marriage. This is one big area. Massive. And I probably, hopefully we can talk about it again at another time and maybe focus on that. You know what? If we could just talk about that, how should couples be managing their finances? Because it causes a lot of issues in marriage.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You want me to go? Okay. Start. I, We believe, okay, and we used to be apologetic about what we're going to say next, but we believe in joint account or joint accountability.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

One of the two.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_01:

Or both. Okay. At the very least, joint accountability, but preferably a joint account. Now, why? Because of how important money is, we believe that agreeing on... financial decisions agreeing on how you spend your money agreeing on what you do with your money will form a very big part of how you connect as a couple we hear too many stories of people who don't know how much their spouses earn or people borrowing money behind their spouses or buying things that their spouses are not aware of and that just shows a disconnect you know and and you know, if you have a joint account, it's very difficult to spend money that your spouse doesn't know of. And we know that some people, you know, don't have joint accounts and that's fine, but we say have a joint accountability. So even if you have different accounts, Each one of you knows what is going in and going out of the other person's account. It's easier if it's a joint account, but at least there should be joint accountability. That's how we see things. If you are one, as we're supposed to be in marriage, then you should discuss everything. And money is a big part of everything that we deal with in this day and age. So that's it in summary. There'll be lots of angles to it, or what if I can't trust my spouse, or what if I can't trust them with money. I mean, the big question I would have liked to ask is, well, why did you get married to someone you can't trust with money? But

SPEAKER_02:

people change.

SPEAKER_01:

People change. Hmm. People, people, yeah, we've addressed that. People, there may have been

SPEAKER_02:

signs.

SPEAKER_01:

There might have been, there would have been

SPEAKER_02:

telltale

SPEAKER_01:

signs. There would have been telltale signs because very rarely would you see somebody who was completely open with their financial plan and all of a sudden they're not, you know, there would have been signs. Um, and yes, you're right. People, if, if circumstances change and for example, somebody who used to be open, um, isn't anymore, then I would understand why steps, would be taken to sort of protect themselves but actually the better thing would have been to address the fundamental issues why has there been a change what is going on how can we come back on track and when Dami came to join me in the UK you know we got married in Nigeria came over here I came over here I think for about six months and then Dami came to join me one of the first things we did was I walked her into the bank I walked and just added her to the account I didn't think of her opening her own account. She didn't think of opening her own account. It was a case of And it's the same account that we've had since then. We've opened other accounts since, but that's still our main account. We prefer to be open. Now, does that mean we do everything exactly the same way? Well, somebody spends more money than the other. I'm not looking in your direction, sweetheart. Every

SPEAKER_02:

marriage has one of

SPEAKER_01:

those. Absolutely. But it's about coming to a place where we have that agreement, that And one of the things that we agreed on many years ago is that there will be no major purchases made without us agreeing on it. We both have allowances that we can spend. without necessarily discussing with the other person but any major purchases we always have to agree on that and that's one of the ways we have managed our finances if we have to agree on everything whoever is more likely to spend too much will be reined in by the person not spending at all and whoever is the stingy one will be supported by the person who is more comfortable with spending money so it's about working together because we both bring different things to the relationship if there are issues with dishonesty now that's very difficult to

SPEAKER_02:

manage.

SPEAKER_01:

As Christians, we shouldn't be dishonest, full stop. But if there are issues with dishonesty, then that needs to be managed on its own. Why is there dishonesty? Why are you not holding dear to your Christian values? If there are issues with trying to do things behind your spouse's back, then that reflects to me a bigger issue in the marriage. So lots of things. I think if

SPEAKER_02:

there is money issue, I think it will always be fundamentally due to trust issues. If you have to trace it back, you know, that is number one thing I would say in addition to what you have said. So it's either that somebody is not trusting the other person and that is why they are holding back or the other person that is not opening up is also, you know, have issues with trust, you know. So it is important that couples address that. That's number one. And number two, if couples goes into a relationship, knowing that our money the money is our money it will also help so that it helps whoever spends too much whoever doesn't spend enough you know because then you know that it is our money it's not mine it is not mine yeah it is ours and that is that it kind of makes you very very open because they say your money is your life yeah it makes you very very open because you want to protect your life yeah women love security and you know and at the same time men love that the woman they are partnering with can be trusted as well that you will not blow it unnecessarily so it is important so money issue is a fundamental issue that needs to be addressed in relation to trust as well That's true. I like what you said about joint accountability because it's not every couple that can do joint account or want to do joint account or have a joint account. For instance, we don't have a joint account. We've been married 32 years now. But the reason why we didn't have a joint account for us is because I'm spontaneous. I'm a very spontaneous person. I just like to... I see something I like, I'm going to buy it. But My husband is different. He's going to go online. We check the price here. We check that site. That's me. For me, that is a bit boring. Just buy this thing and let's go. Buy it and let's go. When it comes to big items, like you said, of course, we talk about it. We discuss it. But when it comes to just little things, I'm very spontaneous. So when we were dating, we realized that it was causing friction. And so from that point, we agreed that we wouldn't have joint accounts, but we I know exactly how much he earns I know all his card details and the same way he knows everything so what you said about joint accountability I absolutely love that because there will be people out there thinking we don't do joint accounts so maybe our marriage is not working or we can't do joint accounts no that's not the case If there's joint accountability, it's good. As long as you're able to, it works for you and make it work for you. I really love what you just said. You need to know how much each other is owing, how much each other is earning, what is coming into the family pot and what is going on and we can both be accountable

SPEAKER_01:

for it. How can you plan for the future if you only know half the story? You need to know the full picture so that we can plan

SPEAKER_02:

appropriately. Another big one and we're just going to go through it quickly forgiveness in marriage and from the point of infidelity if there's been infidelity in a marriage do you think it's possible to forgive I know this is a big massive issue we're just gonna

SPEAKER_01:

she throws it in right

SPEAKER_02:

at the

SPEAKER_01:

end yeah

SPEAKER_02:

we've gone over our time anyway so it doesn't matter let's keep going

SPEAKER_01:

it's possible it's possible not easy yeah not easy at all but it is possible yeah um They'll need support. They'll need counselling. It's not something we would recommend that they try to... I mean, they can navigate it on their own if they're able to have the open conversations. What happened? Why did it happen? Where did things go wrong? Something must have left a gap, especially if we're talking about a Christian relationship. Something must have created an opening. Something must have resulted in it. There needs to be a breakdown, a full analysis. there'll need to be copious forgiveness. The wronged party, and let's not always assume

SPEAKER_02:

that

SPEAKER_01:

it's the man that's been unfaithful because we've seen it both ways, but the wronged party will need to forgive. If they want, it will be difficult not to forgive and stay in the relationship. The wrongs, and, you know, there's so many aspects. Is there remorse? You know, was this, you know, brazen? You know, was this, you know, was there a blasé attitude to it? Was it just the fact that, well, I did it and I don't care? If it was remorseful, you know, I didn't really plan this, it just happened, I didn't mean it, you know, I'm really sorry. If there is remorse, then it makes it easier to manage what I would say and I don't think this is controversial whether or not irrespective of whatever happens I think the wronged party needs to forgive And the reason you forgive is you forgive first for yourself. Because the Bible says we should forgive. So you forgive. Now, the big decision as to whether that relationship goes on will depend on whether or not there's remorse. Are they still willing to work together? Are they still able to work things out? Are they able to do a proper analysis of what led to it? How can we be sure it won't happen again? It's a really big thing. But the direct answer to your question, is it possible? It is possible, but it will take a lot of work a lot of rebuilding to get them back to that place where the marriage is healthy

SPEAKER_02:

and you did say something about going back to finding out what cost what could have where did the opening come in because I was listening to something I think it was this morning as well and the lady was saying that she was actually the one who cost it in the sense that she wasn't the one that was unfaithful but she felt that she cost it because she ignored her husband she was busy and it was all about her children she said she all she was focusing on my children my children my children and i'm busy and so the man began to feel lonely and unloved unloved a christian man and as somebody else was giving him attention outside

SPEAKER_01:

yeah and it happened and it

SPEAKER_02:

happened i

SPEAKER_01:

mean i must say from the christian point of view there isn't I don't want to excuse. No, that's not an excuse. So we don't want to excuse unfaithfulness, but it's important to drill back as to what led to it. Because if that isn't corrected, it could happen again. But actually, why wait for it to get to that point? If we find out that thing, that our marriage is not in a state of health, we should be doing something about it because we want to prevent a breakdown. And I think too many people leave things onto a very late stage. Yeah. And it's almost like, you know, if a person has been having tummy ache and you just wait until the tummy ache is almost killing you before you seek help. No. Once you've had a tummy ache for a couple of days, you know, you've taken some painkillers, it's not helping, you need to seek medical advice. Likewise, if you see that there are issues in the marriage, then it needs to be dealt with. And this is where it's very important to mention at this point, every couple ideally should have another couple that they feel accountable to. A couple that you can say, look, something's not right we need support because if a couple feel alone and you've tried to address things with your spouse your spouse is oh I'm really busy you know the children are important the children are important the children are important and that person feels left alone that's when the enemy the devil opens the door and some other person starts showing them attention and before you know it things have happened so it's very important that there's a measure of accountability with other couples that they respect and honour who they can say look you know the devil is knocking on my door and something needs to happen

SPEAKER_02:

yeah wow thank you so so much I don't want to end this because time has gone so fast I can't believe we've almost spent an hour on this but before we end I always like to end my podcast on a note of hope and so On the note of hope, I just wanted you to give us two lessons each that you've learnt about marriage and what you would like to say to the audience listening about marriage, what they can do to help their marriages. Two lessons each. Okay. And, yeah. Shall I start? Yeah. Probably repeat

SPEAKER_01:

what you've said. She said two lessons each. I think the first lesson is... Mindset.

SPEAKER_02:

Mindset.

SPEAKER_01:

Marriage is to be enjoyed.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And so if you're not enjoying marriage, find out why and do something about it. Okay. I think if everyone looked at their marriage from that point of view, I don't feel I'm enjoying my marriage. The answer is not running away or bailing out. The answer is looking into why you're not enjoying the marriage and doing something about it. So I think a change in mindset I think would be very, very useful. And the other thing is, go back... to doing what you used to do when things were good if you look back at the time and if things were never good then I wonder what happened how did you get married but for most couples there was a time when things were good what were you doing then and if you can bring that back you can recreate that you know we're spending more time together we're having fun together you know if you can recreate that then most couples I think would find that you know things will get back on track

SPEAKER_02:

okay thank you okay so I want to look at from a spiritual perspective I knew you'd do that and that would be that you need to die to yourself marriage is you need to be less self-centered you know self-absorbed because it's not always about you these are two people coming together So sometimes when you hold on to things for so long and you don't want to change or bend, it can affect your marriage. So it's important to look inward. I'll give an example. I remember where I learned that. from was when I first listened to Joyce Myers many, many years ago, I think maybe 20 years ago now, and she said that she used to go to God and say, God, change Dave, change Dave, change Dave. And then until one day, the Holy Spirit said to her, no, change that prayer. God, change me. You need to change. But it's him. And God said, no, no, no, no. Let's talk about you. And then, and she said, mom started focusing on herself. Yeah. Looking in when she realized that, okay, I actually need help. I'm the one that is the problem. And I said, and that was, that was the stage I was in my mind. I used to pray, Lord, I'm a very nice person. Well, it's just a bad boy. You know, until God said, no, no, no, no. Auntie, Look at yourself. And I was like, what? I remember shortly after that, I started looking inward and looking at the things I was doing perhaps to upset him, making him do whatever he was doing to upset me more. And I think, you've changed. And that was the beginning of me learning about being less absorbed in the marriage. And the second thing I want to say is marriage is hard work, I would say. And a number of people think marriage just happened. No, it doesn't just happen. And it's a lot of work. It's a lot of prayer, a lot of investment, a lot of understanding, copious forgiveness. And those are hard work. Those are things that are difficult sometimes to do. And you cannot do marriage well without the help, if you're a Christian, without the help of the Holy Spirit. So I depend a lot on the Holy Spirit personally. And I've seen the help of the Holy Spirit because he helped me to understand my husband more he helps me to know how to talk to talk to myself me I want to do things myself I've planned my life I don't want anybody to stress to me the only thing we say auntie stop there stop there you need to do it this way otherwise to the minutest if I will listen I know how the only thing is help me to press his mumu button in that sense if he's not if we are trying to talk about something and he says no and I know in my heart of father this is a good thing I just say okay it's fine And I'll just go and pray. And more often than not, he will come back and say, actually, I've been thinking about that thing. Maybe we should do it. And I'll be like, thank you, Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit will say, if you have done it, you will get it. So it's always so vital if you have a Christian marriage, depend on the person that knows the best. The Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01:

Just to add to what you've said, I was having a conversation with my pastor and we said, a good marriage is is 90% being a good Christian.

SPEAKER_02:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

A good marriage is 90% being a good Christian. What are the values of Christianity?

SPEAKER_02:

Love,

SPEAKER_01:

forgiveness, long-suffering, understanding, loving others as you love yourself. If you are a good Christian and you embrace your Christian values, it will translate into your marriage.

SPEAKER_02:

Wow, thank you so much. If you're a good Christian, it would translate into your marriage. and depend on the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is your friend. I agree with that 100% because I remember with me too, I would say, before I speak to my husband, because I used to be like, I'm just going to, just like you, I'm going to say it exactly how I feel, you know, he has to hear it. And then Holy Spirit, okay, go on. I see what happens. And then I learned that it was better to say, Holy Spirit, please. teach me what to say tell me how to say it and help him to hear it the way that he's supposed to hear it you know and with that mindset things have worked and I think that's the secret that's the secret that's the secret sauce to marriage to a happy marriage thank you guys so so much oh my god I wish we could just keep going but I'm sure I'm going to have you back again soon I hope you'll be able to come back again soon thank you so so much so much it's been a real pleasure having you thank you this has been good fun thanks so much thank you I'm glad you've enjoyed it too thank you so much thank you Thank you all for listening to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Telly. And if you've enjoyed this episode, please share it. Let everybody know about it. Help us by spreading the word. Spread the word. And hopefully we'll have you again on Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Telly. Until then, take care and God bless you all.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you.