From Abuse to Advocacy with Rev Ben Cooper (Season 2 Episode 1)

 Join us for a powerful episode of "Navigating the Chapters of Challenge" as Rev Ben bravely shares his harrowing experience of enduring sexual abuse and trauma at just 12 years old. This poignant discussion delves into the psychological and physiological toll the ordeal took on him, and his long struggle to comprehend and cope with the trauma.

As the grandson of a Pastor he was plagued by the haunting question  “Why me? and as a young pastor, he struggled to reconcile preaching about forgiveness while grappling with the inability to forgive those who hurt him. 

After more than three decades, Rev Ben is breaking his silence. In a mission to help others speak out and find freedom, he shares his story with raw honesty and a deep commitment to advocacy. This episode is a beacon of hope and resilience, shedding light on the path from victim to survivor and champion for change. Don't miss this eye-opening and inspiring conversation that promises to be both heart-wrenching and empowering. 🌟🎙️ #EndAbuse #SurvivorStory #HealingJourney #FaithAndForgiveness 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:02

you

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Hello and welcome to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge, Season 2. Thank you for listening in again and thank you for joining us again. To those who are joining us for the first time, you're welcome. And to those who've been listening to us through Season 1, thank you for coming back. We're going to start this season with Reverend Ben Cooper. Reverend Ben Cooper has been really, what's the word I'm going to use now? has been very helpful with this podcast. He's the one that's really helped us to get to where we are today by the grace of God. So it's just pertinent that we have him as the first guest again on season two. So I'm just going to ask Reverend Ben Cooper to introduce himself briefly and then we'll go straight into the topic for today.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Hi everyone, thank you Telly. Yes, obviously Reverend Ben Cooper and I've been the minister of this church for, gosh, a long time now, a number of years and as we're in this room this is absolutely a critical room here and we're really blessed in the ministry of this church and everything that's going on and we thank God for his grace and I think I've been here roughly around about 18 years in this church so it's good. We're a frontline church, everything's happening, you know, so much stuff going on and we're really Really, really blessed to be here and to minister in this place. And the Lord is really blessing the ministry. We're feeding people. We're clothing people. Lots of things that are happening here. So we are really, really blessed here. And I love it. I love the ministry and everything that we're involved in. It's good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Okay. You didn't tell us the name of the church.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Oh, okay, I suppose I might have won it. Elam Church. Elam Church, Swanley. Elam Church, Swanley. Elam Church, Swanley. So, yeah, been here a long time. I think the church has been here around about 45 years, something like that.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah, 45 years.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

I didn't know it was that long. Yeah, it's been about, yeah, definitely 45 years. I'm pretty sure of it.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

Wow, thank God. Okay, so today's topic is a bit sensitive, so I'm just going to put that out there. So if you're feeling a bit uncomfortable with it... Please just walk away from this one and you can come back on the next podcast if that's how you feel. But I believe that the Holy Spirit is going to take control and it will be a blessing to people out there. So today we're talking about abuse. We're talking about sexual abuse and Reverend Ben is going to tell us his story. his experience of this and I'm just going to hand it over to Reverend Ben and yeah we'll take it from there.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Thank you Tilly. Yeah it's quite a story to be honest with you. So obviously just take it from the beginning and I do apologise if anything gets a little bit sensitive because obviously it really is in certain parts of it but it's quite a deep and it's very very personal obviously and I've only been speaking about it the last year about the last year so it's It's crucial. So I've actually pushed this away for how long now? I've pushed this away for, oh dear, 38 years. I've kept this and I didn't tell anyone for about the last year. Certain things happened. So the story came out purely because incidents that happened in this church, things that was going on outside, the work that I was involved in. Helping people to get through from certain areas that I can't really mention on this recording because it's quite sensitive in certain places that we work, freeing people up from certain... abusive situations and I just literally said something to the police officer and they said to me a few things and it got opened up and it's here so I'm not my normal self when I speak about it because normally I'm shouting and all of a sudden jumping around but when it comes down to speaking about myself and this situation it's still so raw even though it's like 38 years done so I was a paper boy So I was a paper boy in the local shop just around the corner, not too far from us, where we are literally over the field of the church where the food bank is. The Trussell Trust food bank is the place where it all took place with myself. So I was 12 years old. My dad got me a job. in the paper shop. And it was good at first. Everything was okay. Things were fine. No problems. Everything was going along well. And so from the age of 12, I was roughly in there. And then things started to turn. And it's very, very interesting how pedophiles work. They're very, very clever. They're very, very manipulative in the way that they do things. And looking back at it now, it's easy to say, why did I... Why didn't I pick any red flags up? Why wasn't there nothing around me to actually give me the incentive to run, so to speak? So, yeah, 12 years old, I went into there. My dad got me a job. I remember I had a push bike. I had a blue. It's very, very significant. This is a blue push bike. It was a BMX when they first came out. It was a blue BMX, yellow wheels, sky wheels it had. And it was a very significant part of my journey. So yeah, very tough story this is actually. So the more I think about it, the more it's getting a little bit more brutal to talk about as time goes by. The police are involved at this moment as we speak. They have protected me in certain ways because of certain things that are still going on with certain things. So it's quite a difficult situation to speak about because obviously I can't name no one. I can't bring it to that sort of point. So just a brief outline. So 12 years old. Blue bike, very, very significant. Dad got me the job. I'm in the paper shop. Probably six, seven, eight months go by, and then suddenly you find yourself in this situation. You're thinking, hang on a minute, how did this ever happen? But from day one, you could say it like this, they had your card marked. They knew exactly what they was doing. They knew how, and it was quite a large pedophile ring. So all the atrocities that you could ever imagine went on. So six, eight months in, And it started, it literally started, up until I was about 14 or 15 years old. So a very dark experience, very painful, uncertain, couldn't believe it was happening. when you go through that sort of things so it's yeah telly it's a it's a tough conversation but just fire away ask ask whatever it seems very odd at this moment to be sitting on the other side of the mic yeah you know telling your own story

SPEAKER_02 7:22

yeah i understand that and i know that this must be really really hard um you said something earlier on about not talking about it for so long why do you think you didn't talk about it for so long

SPEAKER_00 7:35

I literally buried it. If I could use that, I buried it. But what really brought it up was a few things. I didn't want to admit it. I didn't want to accept that that could have happened to me. So when you're a young lad and you've been raped an uncountable amount of times, it's something that can mess your head up. Well, it does mess your head up. So when you experience what you experience and you think, is this really true? Is this really happening? And then as you start to progress in life and you get to like 18, 19, 20 and you move on and everything happens and I thought I dealt with it but you never really deal with it. It's always there. It was so strong. It's starting to get a lot easier as I speak about it. I found it very difficult to talk to the police about it at first. That was embarrassing. That was scary. That was frightening. And obviously it's just... You have to say to yourself, was that really me? Did that really happen? Was that really happening to me? Why me, Lord? What's going on? Like, Lord, now I'm in the position I'm in for 25 years as a pastor, reverend leader of a church. But we've all got these stories somewhere along the line where, why, Lord, why did this happen to me? So I just had to bury it, tell you. I just had to put it away. It was horrific. I just couldn't tell my mum. I couldn't tell my dad. I couldn't. I couldn't tell my nan, my nan, sorry, my nan and my granddad, family around me, very close family. So all that stuff was going on. And, uh, another area where it blew up is through, through lockdown. I had to, um, I was working obviously in the ministry, everything was locked down and I had a phone call. Can I, um, do a funeral said yeah do a funeral no problem of course and i was doing loads and loads and loads of uncountable funerals so it wasn't unusual just to do a funeral but when they dropped the name through it was one of the pedophiles so uh that must

SPEAKER_02 9:39

have been a shock

SPEAKER_00 9:41

yeah it was a shock so when you're doing their funeral and uh what happened after that it was it was what we call a pauper's funeral as well, because obviously no family, didn't have no family anyway. And it was a pauper's funeral. It was just me, the undertakers, and the funeral directors were just there. But from that point on, what happened to me, I started to have nightmares. So when I'd done the funeral, what happened very, very quick, straight after that, I would say, I used to wake up completely dripping in sweat, fearful, crying, all that sort of stuff and what i was having the nightmare was that he punched the lid off the coffin and he pulled me into the coffin and then the lid slammed

SPEAKER_02 10:26

so

SPEAKER_00 10:27

it's like it's just like

SPEAKER_02 10:30

it's bringing it bringing it all back again

SPEAKER_00 10:32

yeah but in a real dark a real dark way as in i'm thinking this this this yeah i can't actually express what what it what it feels like to relive certain things at that sort of level and you're just trying to push it away but it absorbs your life even though when you live life and you do what you do and you've got family you've got friends you've got jobs happening you can never push it away you can never ever push it away even in ministry preaching and teaching and doing what I was doing every time like every time I'd get in the pulpit it'd be so powerfully in the back of my mind my subconscious it was always there and I'd be preaching and doing what was doing in the church and it's like the devil like stirring it back up if if people knew what happened to you you're they wouldn't you know it all this crazy stuff the devil certainly is a liar yeah that's for sure and it was it's been tough I tell you what it's been absolutely tough and it took me to the wire more times than I can actually count so it started off when I was 12 And then a few things that really brought it to light over the last bit of time. But it's really mainly the last year. So I got through, I've done the funeral, done that, didn't mention anything to no one, just got down, just got me head down, got on with it and just pushed through. But it's, yeah, that was brutal. That was a brutal thing to do. That was like, that was a torturous thing to actually do that. So when you talk about forgiveness... forgiveness wow

SPEAKER_02 12:05

i was gonna come to that i was gonna say when you were doing his funeral you know normally at funerals they say nice things about people even though people are not necessarily nice people tend to say nice things about people and say good things about people so how how did you get through that were you what did you say how how could you have gotten through that because i don't think i could have done it

SPEAKER_00 12:28

well thankfully because it was a pauper's funeral, it was literally just very robotic.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

So there was no family, there was no one there. It was literally just the logistics of in, put the casket on the catafelt at the creme, do what I've got to do. There was no prayed over it, you know, read the scripture, done the Lord's prayer, done the committal prayer. There was no words as in, coming from a human being so that was the only thing I can say that that was a blessing that it was in a lockdown experience where everything was so quick and fast it was just the legalities that go with it really so I didn't have to worry about doing any of that whatsoever so I thank God for that so it was a blessing to me that I didn't have to go into any area of detail so forgiveness Lord, help me. Help me, Lord. Yeah. Help me. I understand that. I teach on it. Yeah. I'm telling everyone under the sun to forgive.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Yeah. And it must be hard to forgive this.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Can I? Will I? The Lord knows my heart. I don't know. Some days I have days where I pray and I say, thank you, Lord. I forgive these perpetrators. I forgive these abusers, these pedophiles. Lord, I thank you for their lives. But Thank you for their lives. Yeah. You have to go beyond. You have to go beyond. How

SPEAKER_02 14:05

do you thank God for their lives? Because their lives had a negative impact on your life.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

The Bible says, bless your enemies. Pray for those that persecute you.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

So I've got to push it beyond what I can do. Because if I allowed it, and if I, like I did, I think it would have eaten me like a cancer. to be honest with you. So I've got to go beyond. I've got to go beyond. So the prayer is, Lord, for all those that came against me in the most vile ways, I thank you for their life. I thank you for them because you created them. Help me to understand. And the only way you'll ever understand is through revelational knowledge, God revealing and God doing a miracle. So people that have been raped in their life, people that have been abused psychologically, financially, spiritually. Emotionally. Emotionally, arranged marriages, all the abuse out there. It's such an individual journey, isn't it? It's such a psychological abuse. People that get caught in cultural marriages, you know, abuse. There's a lot of

SPEAKER_02 15:12

abuse out

SPEAKER_00 15:13

there. I don't actually know what the answer is, to be fair. It's very tough.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Can I take you back? And if it's uncomfortable for you to ask, please just let me know. You did say you were raped multiple times. And I'm just wondering, after it happened the first time, did you go back there again? Did you have to go back there again? Forgive me for asking.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

It's very interesting, the question you're asking. Because, yes, simply because... they make it almost the normal thing to do

SPEAKER_02 15:49

okay

SPEAKER_00 15:51

the way that they groom you the way that they they talk to you the way that they entice you in without enticing you in consciously

SPEAKER_01 16:01

and

SPEAKER_00 16:03

the the line that literally comes out of it is well if you don't if you don't come back if you don't carry on and We're going to tell people. People are going to think you're dirty. You're just a boy and no one's going to take any notes of you. We're adults and all that sort of stuff. And you find that you're just trapped. You're like a rabbit in the headlights. And the fear is so strong, it almost numbs. Fear numbs it. It's crazy because I think to myself, why did I even allow it once? How did I ever get trapped? How can a human being ever get trapped? in a a circle in a in a situation how why couldn't i break why couldn't i break it why didn't i fight why didn't i kick back but it's very clever that they're so manipulative they are so controlling without you realizing they're controlling without their manipulative and they make make me they made me feel like i was the one doing the wrong It's all my fault. It's my fault. It's my fault. And if everybody knows about this, your mum, your dad, your nan, your granddad, all the people in the church, they're going to never talk to you. They're never going to... Your dad's going to beat you. It's all going to... It's just so clever the way how they grab you by your mind. And you can get into a position where you think to yourself, I have no choice. I don't have a choice because... Obviously, being at such a young age, you can't think and you don't know what to do because you're looking up to the adults, the adults in your life you're trusting.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

Abusing that trust.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

Yeah, you're trusting these people that are around you and then suddenly, before you know it, the event happens. You feel absolutely vile, beyond vile. You can't even... it puts you in a bubble of a world that doesn't really exist it puts you into a position that it didn't happen it didn't happen that was a mad dream that was just a moment of craziness no it wasn't me it wasn't me I don't know how others deal with it but I really don't know what to say Telly I don't know because yes looking back now you would think that anyone that would go through anything like that would literally go and tell straight away But they entice you in as in they get you feeling so comfortable at first as in they've got my back. They're like family. They're very, very clever. And then suddenly there's almost no way out. There's almost no way out. There's no way out. It's an odd, strange feeling. situation that only people that have gone

SPEAKER_02 19:00

through it

SPEAKER_00 19:01

will understand.

SPEAKER_02 19:02

You touched on something that I have been reading about and then the blame. People who go through this seem to constantly blame themselves. All the time. How do you get out of that state of blaming yourself and seeing it for what it is? It's not your fault.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

I can't get out of it, Telly. It's there. It's it's a, again, it can only be, it can only be God, because, it's drummed in you, it's, put over you, that it's all your fault, and then suddenly, you become this, oh dear, I started it, when you didn't start it, it's my fault, when it wasn't actually my fault, but your mind is so powerful, and as a young age, you get this like, this rhythm of this, like, oh, okay, yeah, it's me, I'm bad, oh, i'm a horrible person you know nobody loves me it's just just a strange mindset so it's just trapped in your mind it's just trapped in your in one part of your brain again prayer hope god please god please god please god please please lord remove it i don't know i don't know what the answer is i don't This is not going against any counsellors or anyone out there that is in these professional positions, but the only way I see freedom is by literally God doing a miracle.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

I

SPEAKER_00 20:32

don't know how the mind can be freed from any type of abuse. I think you learn to live with it, navigate it, but it's very real. You can almost relive it. trigger points certain things you might see certain sounds certain men even even now i'm pretty confident i can spot someone that's not right i'm pretty confident because there's traits there's ways conversations the way they look at you But I've questioned many, many people in the circle of my life coming all the way through thinking there's something more to you. You seem to pick up this sense of where you can pick up the true character. So yeah, it's a tough one.

SPEAKER_02 21:22

So did you go through any depression, anxiety? Because I read that people tend to go through depression, anxiety, eating disorders and stuff like that as a result of this kind of abuse. Did any of those things happen to you?

SPEAKER_00 21:39

I would say around about four years ago, I had a real bad moment. I don't know how I dealt with it as a child because it's too far back to actually... But I certainly lost my joy. I know that as a young teenager. I certainly lost and things happened and it made me just very, very angry at certain points. So I've become a very angry person. Yeah. me in a few strange ways made me feel very alone but you learn to live with it you push it down you push it to the side but about yeah I'd say about four years ago I hit a wall I literally hit a wall but I wasn't conscious of it as in but now I look back I think do you know what I think it was brewing and I think there was so many things just going on in life and certain things and things happening that it just literally, certain trigger points, just had a moment where I wanted to leave the earth. I don't know how to describe it. You're preaching, you're teaching, you're praying, you've got prayer meetings happening everywhere. You're believing in miracles. You're calling on the power of the Holy Spirit. But then you have a moment where you go, actually want to be here i'm either going to disappear off the face of the earth almost disappear or just what's the point of carrying on the mind you know so you've got a battle you've got a continuation of a battle of your mind trying to work out how am i going to deal with it do i live with it do i say something about it So, yeah, when I look back now, I know that that was a trigger point to me to really getting depressed. But you just had to try and ride it through because of the stigma, the stigma. And if anyone ever knew,

SPEAKER_01 23:45

if

SPEAKER_00 23:45

anyone ever found out what would happen, and I remember the police officer, like a draw dropped when I just blurted it out. And she said, to be honest, Ben, she said that... you're the second person in five years that has actually mentioned anything at this sort of level. Men just seem to drown themselves in drink, get onto drugs, and do all types of manner of things trying to push everything away. So obviously there's just uncountable people out there that is going through stuff like this. going through abuse whether that's financial whether that's sexual whether that's marital whether that whatever it is whatever it is that are just pushing it down we understand and we really get the stats on on uh women being raped and abused and all that and thank god there's so much out there for women thank god that women are really really well looked after but for men if you was to do a google search there's not really a lot out there there's not really a lot out there and uh i happened to uh someone said to me why don't you uh watch this watch that that netflix thing that baby reindeer thing i don't know if you've been familiar with that

SPEAKER_02 25:07

i haven't watched it i've heard about

SPEAKER_00 25:09

it oh my goodness gracious me what a turn that story had on it and that was an eye-opener that was an eye-opener i kept there were certain things that i kept going back to i kept watching i kept watching because what he was explaining because the the actor that was acting that part was actually the one that went through all that so the actor was the actor so it's very interesting to watch so it answered a lot of questions for me but it also threw me in a spin as well it threw me back in a spin so tell you I don't know how you navigate through this the only way I can tell anybody is literally you've just got to pray and you've got to trust

SPEAKER_02 25:46

and keep praying

SPEAKER_00 25:47

and so often you pray and you trust and heaven goes quiet God please Please take the thought. Help me, Lord. Will you help me, Jesus? Father, will you remove it? But then you come back to the scripture where that great, great apostle, great apostle said three times, I pleaded with the Lord, will you take this from me? But then God said, my grace is sufficient for you. So grace. is what gets us through the power of god's word is love you know and i just pray for anyone that's going through stuff that's out there you know and all that that you will find the power of god's grace because god's grace will bring us through god's grace will get us to the cross it always gets us to the cross and we can always find christ through the living word so there is always a way forward but the power of the mind

SPEAKER_01 26:37

yeah

SPEAKER_00 26:38

so why did i why did i stay because of the power of manipulation and control coercive control and when you've got you just don't realize how strong these these and they're not strong as in physicality

SPEAKER_01 26:56

they're

SPEAKER_00 26:57

the most odd bods as well that you could actually ever work work this stuff out they're not physically strong but they're so it's evil so it's not just it's not a natural thing to do it's driven by by Lucifer so all paedophiles are driven by Lucifer all child abusers and many areas of that it is evil and it is dark and it is driven By satanic activity. It really is. It's very, very satanic in certain things. And the more you realize, the more that helps you to understand that they are human beings, but they are literally Satan has entered into them. It is not a normal thing to do. It is far off the scale of normal things to do. It is beyond. It is the darkest things of hell. It is bleak, it is black, and sometimes when I think about it, you can't even word it. But what gives me comfort is when Christ was at the Passover table, and he was about to break bread before he went to the cross in the Garden of Gethsemane, and the scripture says that Satan entered into Judas Iscariot. That has given me quite a bit of comfort to understand that Lucifer uses the vehicle of human beings to get the most vilest of work done.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

So the only way I can say to anybody out there is you've got to ransack the scripture. Yeah, you might be under counseling, but it's got to be the word of God. It can only be the peace. It can only be the love. It can only be favor. It can only be the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01 28:37

Why

SPEAKER_00 28:38

didn't I leave, Telly? I don't know. Why didn't I alert the authorities? I don't know. Why did I allow it? I don't know. But the story, the story just, it grows, it grows, it grows. So just obviously what goes on goes on in them paedophile rings and it was in the sweet shop in the flat above as well. And what made it worse was the church that I'm in here is obviously was birthed and planted and pioneered by My nan, my nan had a vision of this church. My nan had the vision of this church. It was my nan's vision. My grandad, yes, he was an alien minister, but the actual seed was given to my nan. Such a gracious, such a powerful, unassuming, spirit-filled lady. I

SPEAKER_02 29:36

remember

SPEAKER_00 29:37

her. She had the vision, and the vision was that she see... a church coming on the back of a lorry, coming round St Mary's Road, coming into Cherry Avenue and being dropped off here. And this church, if you really knew and see the journey and where we are, it is a miracle beyond miracles how this church has got to be where it is. There's no other way. When you understand what we are sitting in and what's gone on, So this isn't by chance. So the reason I'm mentioning this, and obviously, God bless my granddad, but my granddad was the yearly minister. So how this all ties up is basically like this. So what would happen is the situation would happen. I would jump on the blue bike. I would literally cycle, which is just a stone's throw. You can actually see it, Telly, if you was to look out that window. You see the back of the shop. You see the flat exactly. So I'm almost tortured.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

every time

SPEAKER_00 30:34

every time and I live just there as well so I'm right on the doorstep of it so I can't actually flee and run from it and so where did I get to so yeah I'd come up here on the bike I'd throw the bike out the front I'd run in the church thank God that the church was here and I would come in here and I would just my nan would shout out what you doing nan it's alright I'm just coming I'm just looking at the cross a minute you know God I tell you what it's wicked it's awful And I thank God for this church because it's been my saving grace to make it even crazier, this story. So I'd come flying up here on my bike, flying to church, too scared, just like so scared. The feeling of fear, I can't tell the listeners, I can't tell, I can't express it. I can't express it enough, the power of fear. When fear grabs hold of you, when fear gets hold of you, when fear is running through your veins, when fear, adrenaline, it makes you do the odd, the most craziest things. I don't know. I don't know how to word it. Now, I'm not a person that never struggles for language and for wording and explaining because of where I come from and what I do and the calling, but... trying to explain this it's virtually impossible because of the emotion and the fear and the scared feeling as a 12 and a half 13 year old boy the fear of these aggressors but they're not aggressive because to the outside world they're smiling so they're the most obscured character so you'd fly up here on your push bike throw the bike out the front run in here try and find a cross try and grab your breath Me nana be shouting, hello, you all right out there? Yeah, I'm fine, nana. Yeah, don't worry, all is okay. I'm just wandering through. I'll see you in a little while. So the church is very significant. The church has been my healer. But also, so this happens, this event happens, all this is going on. But then, this is how crazy this is. What happened was, one of the gentlemen meets a lady. he knows that I'm in this church he starts coming to church so suddenly the safe space that is here

SPEAKER_02 33:08

it's no longer safe

SPEAKER_00 33:09

it's no longer safe oh good god so it becomes there's no place to go no place to go so then to make it even worse my grandad as the minister actually marries him In this church.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

He's baptised in this church. He's telling everyone in this church how he's a Christian and he's a believer. And in the scripture, I often think about this, when Christ locked eyes across the courtyard with Peter, three times, you'll disown me.

UNKNOWN 33:55

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

There's certain gazes that people will look at you. And I often think to myself, that man would look into my eyes into this church and you could see dark, satanic. So there are certain gazes and I think people that have gone through certain things in their lives will understand what that's like to have someone look at you and Christ was looking at the apostle, the disciple was looking at Christ. you know, denouncing Christ and all that sort of stuff. And he got married in here, he got baptised in here, he would come to church in here. Don't forget, I'm still a young lad.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

But

SPEAKER_00 34:39

then...

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Because he hadn't changed in any way?

SPEAKER_00 34:42

He hadn't changed. He hadn't changed. He hadn't changed. But then, he's here every Sunday. He's here every Sunday. He's in this church. praising the Lord. So I can't escape it. I can't tell anybody. Now it's got worse because he's a Christian. Am I a Christian? Does Jesus love me? I'm the dark one. I'm the sinner. So suddenly as a young lad watching a paedophile get baptised, get married, and then the irony of it, I'm the one that buries him but there's others involved in it and the police at this moment are investigating things that I've told them and I've had many interviews and over the last year and I've got a lovely police officer that's looking after me and yeah it's this church that we're in no one really knows no one really knows So then suddenly I get in the pulpit as a young minister and I've got to preach forgiveness and love. I've got to preach the goodness and the grace of God. Teaching, prayer meeting after prayer meeting, service after service. It's a strange journey. Very strange journey. But then the story continues to grow. Someone else comes in linked to that And they try a few things. So right under the Lord's house, right in the Lord's house. They try

SPEAKER_02 36:32

something else in the house, in the church.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

He tried something with me. So this is when I kicked out. And this guy is alive. This is the only one that's alive at this moment, and by God's grace. From what I can gather, and I can't go into too much of it, he's around about 80, 85. But then the question people say to me is, oh, it'd be great to get him locked up. But then I've actually said to people, I don't know if I want him locked up. I don't know if I can take that responsibility, which is so weird, so strange. You'd expect

SPEAKER_02 37:11

that you would want some

SPEAKER_00 37:13

payback now. So could I, would I be able to, see this gentleman bang to rights at that young age at this old age and then I think what if I was responsible for a heart attack so it's just this odd strange journey

SPEAKER_02 37:34

still the same hold

SPEAKER_00 37:35

still the same hold still the same hold the only way the hold can be broken is by the power of God and God has broken it and God is moving And there is change. So suddenly this guy comes in. And I've got to be careful because this is... I've got to be careful how I explain this. But basically he tried something and it was the first time I actually lashed out. I literally punched him. And that put that to bed a little bit. So you've got it happening everywhere, Telly. So... I'm now, you know, I will mention it because I've mentioned it. It's nothing new. The shop that is there now is the Trussell Trust food bank. It's in there. The flat still is above it. I know the people that actually live up there. I'm in and out. I was one of the people that was very instrumental, well, the one actually, to set the food bank up there. So when it was down in Swanley many years ago, a property came up and they said to me, will you help us, Pastor Ben? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where are you going to go? Oh, around there. And I thought, you're joking me. You are literally joking me. Then they asked me to be a trustee. I went on as a trustee and that. But I'm not kidding you. That shop, not because it's a trustee, it's nothing to do with the food bank. Please, whoever captures this is nothing to do with any of the organization. But there is a spiritual darkness that is still there after all these years. So what happened was I moved them up. I literally physically moved them up. And my previous life as a bricklayer, 27 years or more ago, obviously all my friends are bricklayers and tradesmen and all that sort of stuff. So I got them involved and between us we converted it. So I had to go in to the sweet shop. I had to go into this place.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

That

SPEAKER_00 39:46

must have been hard. Telly, I can't explain it. Go in there and you could feel it. I could feel the darkness. I could feel the blackness, the bleakness. I could still hear the cries. I could still hear the... take

SPEAKER_02 40:05

a minute we need a minute

SPEAKER_00 40:09

I could hear I could hear it all but I can't tell no one can't tell no one so I'm in there working away doing what I'm doing get them all in there asked to be a trustee yeah of course I will so even in there Up to the last few years ago. Because I come off the trustee ship. I just had to get out. I could still hear. Even having the meetings in there. Going in there. Picking all the food up. Going to different places for them. Helping them out. Doing this. Still hear the screams and the cries. Relive the journey. Relive the journey after all them years. So even now. You know, where all these abusers do what they do, it's very satanic. It's very caught in witchcraft. It's caught in black magic, white magic. It is divination. It is sacrifice. It is occultish. It is so dark. It is so dark. It is evil. It is from the gates of hell. And I honestly believe that whoever has been through any atrocity like that, when you get close to that place that it happened, you feel the spiritual atmosphere. It is tangible. You can remember the smells. You can remember the screams. You can see the faces. I can almost remember where the tears would drop from my face. And I'm living right, it's right on me doorstep. It's right on me doorstep.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Why didn't you move away from here? Why didn't you move out of Swanley? You could have moved out.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

God's called me to Swanley Telly. Okay. This is my Jerusalem. And I'm not going to be run out of town.

SPEAKER_02 42:24

I mean, not, I'm not

SPEAKER_00 42:25

saying. I know what I mean by that. No, I could, I could go to Australia, set a church up, do whatever I was doing, but it's still with me.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

Because

SPEAKER_00 42:35

wherever I go on this earth, wherever I go, it is there. So the best thing I can do is face Goliath every day, every moment, and not allow him, the spiritual entities, the dark forces to take me out. I would rather face it every day, Yeah. Yeah. Don't be frightened to talk. You bring it to the table. Because as many of us that can talk about it, man, woman, boy, girl, whoever we are, we can't let the darkness win. So if I was to run, I'd be doing exactly what the devil wanted. If I was to migrate, I would take that to the grave. But I'm not taking it to the grave. I'm taking it to the cross. And it's not It's not going to beat me. It's not going to take me out. It's not going to wear me down. So it's going to be that scripture, all things work together for the good of those who love God. All things are possible to those who believe. So all that went on, and that's just a glimmer, just a glimmer of stuff. It's so powerful. The darkness is so powerful. But it's not more powerful than the light of the Holy God that we serve, the power of the Holy Spirit. It's not any more powerful than anything like that. There is power in the name of Jesus. So for anyone who's gone through, going through, I would encourage you to stand on a rooftop and to shout it out because what the devil wants... He wants us to hold it in secret. So if I had left the UK, the devil would have won. But Goliath isn't going to win.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

No. And I think what you said about stigma is exactly what it is. That fear of stigma, they make you feel like once it's out there, people are going to stigmatise you. And I think that's what we need to understand. fight against now that's what the world needs to fight against talk about this thing make sure because the more you talk about it the less it becomes something that is stigmatized you know and then I think maybe slowly slowly slowly people are brave to talk about what they've gone through I don't know I just feel like it's the stigma that makes it worse

SPEAKER_00 45:44

it is the stigma

SPEAKER_02 45:45

that fear being labeled as like you said the bad one you

SPEAKER_00 45:50

know yeah It's stigma. It's so strong. It can rule you. I'm the bad one. It's my fault. And actually telling people and actually mentioning it because it throws you in such a spin. Many times you can question your sexuality. Many times you can question what's wrong with me. Many times you can say to yourself... It's me. It's my fault. I had the power to stop that. I could have stopped that. Maybe I had to do that. Maybe, oh, I tell you, the dark faults, wrestling, so the stigma, it all goes together. And it is dark. It is evil. Because the devil uses stigma. The devil is so clever.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

The devil is so clever how he will manipulate and shape and try to do things and try to tell you and do all this sort of stuff. It's the stigma that goes with it. But through the power of prayer, through the power of hope and through the power of justification and the power of God, you know, it can be broken and it will be broken. You know, whoever you are out there, it's really, really... important that we understand that there is freedom John 8 32 you will know the truth when you start speaking the stigma will go the fear will go it feels like you're opening up a can of worms but I would urge anyone don't carry it you've got to find someone that you can trust you can find people and just speak about it but I'm not frightened about speaking about it no more I'm not worried what the world says around me I've come to that position that this is critical I need to tell the story because by telling the story we can see and we can get justice in whatever way you look at that you can set the captives free you can alert people your experiences whoever you are out there across the world Your experience through that can set someone free to let someone know, do you know what? I've experienced it. I know what you're feeling. I know what it feels like. And since I've been talking about it, a couple of people have come to me and said, I really appreciate you saying that because it happened to me. And I know there's different levels and different layers of it and different threads that go with it. But abuse is abuse. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So you talk, and by all of us talking and coming together and believing and trusting, we're survivors. You're a survivor. You've gone through Psalm 23. Even though I go through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me. It's like just this conversation is exhausting. Yeah, I can imagine. It's literally exhausting. And you've got to be careful not to get angry. you've got to be careful not wanting to find the people and literally make them pay emotions are so strong but faith is stronger than emotions so if anyone is out there that is going through it right now stand up stand up and get to a safe space we know there's lots of we know things have changed over the last number of years you know there are places where you can go that are safe yeah So lots to think about, lots to think about, lots to understand.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Thank you so much for being very vulnerable. I know this has been hard and I'm really grateful that you've been able to open up like this. Before we finally go, I just wanted to ask one question because I just think it's just been on my heart to ask it.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Are there any warning signs for people out there? Is there anything that people could say, oh, this is a warning sign, back off? Because I want people to go away from here saying, okay, they heard the story, but there's things they've learned as well in terms of if they see this kind of thing, they know to flee. Is there anything that people could be aware of or things they could see? Okay, your grandma didn't know what was going on with you, but... Somebody could have a child living with them that's probably going through something like that and there might be some signs that they could see that would trigger or make them realise that something's going on. Just wondering, is there anything you could...

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Yeah, definitely. I would always check the babysitters out.

SPEAKER_02 50:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Very, very important.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

I would always look at the people... The adults is obviously around the children. Are they over-friendly?

SPEAKER_02 51:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Are they too good to be true?

SPEAKER_02 51:12

Okay. In what way?

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Sweets, putting kids on their laps, loads of cuddles. Okay. Saying certain things in certain ways. You're special. Oh, you're so lovely. There's certain things you just don't say to children.

SPEAKER_02 51:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 51:34

Where you hug children. The way you look at children. You know, I'm pretty confident I can clock someone a long way off now. And I've had a few suspicions of things. And you've just got to have, you've got to say, God, open my eyes as a parent or even someone, a young person that might be listening to this. What are the trigger points? If someone is over friendly with you and they are promising you things and they're saying things like, it's just between me and you, it's all right. It's okay. It's our secret. It's fine. Don't worry. This is normal. Don't worry. Social networks, you know, the media, the social media is such the devil's ground for grooming to be reeled in. to be reeled in with gifts. If anyone is trying to buy a young person gifts and showering them with trainers and promising them things, there's lots of flags, lots of areas. Careful you have it in your home just because they're your family don't mean to say anything, to be honest with you. And I think it's so easy to be blind to it. So easy to push it aside and not actually see the warning signs that are right before your very eyes. This person is over familiar. This person makes a beeline for this child all the time. This person is always buying them gifts. Check the phone. Is there any text coming from this person? Just the most obvious, but they're not obvious things. You know, they're not obvious. Why is this person buying them gifts? Friend of the family. You know, is the child reacting differently when the person comes into the room? Are they a bit more scared? Do they want to get out of the room? Are they fearful of what this person could say? Lots of little things. Lots of little things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Thank you. You're welcome. Okay, so we'd like to end this podcast on a note of hope, so... Any last words you'd like to share?

SPEAKER_00 53:44

Yeah, sure. There is always hope. There is always hope. There is always a way forward and you don't give up and you don't allow the perpetrators, you don't allow the abusers or whatever abuse it may be. You do not allow them anymore to get inside your head, your heart, your mind, your spirit, your soul. You find a church, you find a cross, you find someone that you can talk to and just remember that that you you can recover you can heal you can be set free all things are possible don't don't allow these these moments of dark bleak evil situations to to put you on drugs to put you on drink to to run you out of town you know stand strong grab your breath try whatever you've got to try to get free but there is only one place there is only one place that I guarantee you that you will be healed and I thank God for the counselors I thank God for the doctors I thank God for the systems but there is only one place and it's called the cross there's only one place and there's only one person his name is Jesus he's the God of Israel it's the Holy Spirit they are your counselors they are your freedom they are your saviour They are the way, the truth, and the life. And you get yourself to a church, you find yourself a cross. Maybe you're listening to this as a non-believer or whatever. Trust me, it will bring hope to you, whether in faith, out of faith. Get to the cross and look at the cross. Not that we're worshipping the cross. I'm not putting any emphasis on the cross, but what it symbolises. Or grab yourself a Bible. Grab yourself a Bible, get into Psalms, read Psalm 91, Psalm 40, Psalm 23. Just get in there and just say, Father, will you take these feelings away from me? Lord, I feel dirty, I feel grubby, I feel guilty, I feel scared, I feel frightened, I feel vulnerable. Lord, I don't know what to do. Just say, God, help me. And I guarantee my life, I guarantee you, you will start to find peace. that there's hope and there is a way forward and his name is Jesus and everything that you've been through everything you're going through is nailed at the cross and never give up just never ever give up the scripture says in 2 Corinthians and I think around about chapter 14 you'll have to check that off the top of your head my mind's a bit wobbly at the minute it says never lose heart never lose heart

SPEAKER_02 56:32

yeah never lose heart stand strong hold on to Jesus amen thank you so so much for being vulnerable for for yeah thank you so much I don't know how to thank you but thank you so much and I just pray that this has been a blessing to people out there and that yeah you'll find some release just from listening to this thank you and yes so we've come to the end of This episode has been a difficult one, but we thank God for the grace. And hopefully we'll have you in the next episode with us. Thank you so much for listening to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge. Take care and God bless.