Chosen Love: The Profound Impact of Adoption - A Conversation with Debbie

Prepare to be moved by an impactful discussion on adoption as Debbie shares her profound insights into this life-changing journey. In this compelling episode, Debbie delves into the emotional and physical challenges that come with adoption, shedding light on its transformative power.

Discover why adoption is not only a beautiful act of love but also a profound blessing for both parents and children. Debbie explores the deep-rooted Christian perspective on adoption, emphasizing the inherent value of every individual and the calling to extend love and compassion to those in need.

Whether you're considering adoption, have been touched by its impact, or simply curious about its significance, this episode offers compelling reasons to embrace the journey of adoption. Tune in now to gain a deeper understanding of the beauty and significance of adopting children, and be inspired to make a difference in the lives of others. 🌟🎙️ #AdoptionJourney #HeartfeltBlessings #ChristianPerspective 🌈

 Find Link to article referenced here: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2024/january-web-only/adoption-expectations-church-theology-complexity-grief.html

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

you

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Hello and welcome to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Tele. Today I've got Debbie in the house again with us. Debbie was our very first guest on this podcast and she's back again. And yeah, Debbie say hello to everybody and then we'll go straight into the topic for today. Thank you, Tele. Hello everyone. I'm so glad I can... Thanks for having me back. It's always a pleasure to be here. and surrogacy from the Christian perspective and it's going to be in three parts but today we're going to focus mainly on adoption and we'll take it from there and the subsequent episodes we'll talk about surrogacy and fostering. So I'm going to start from A question. And it's basically something I was reading about today, early this morning. I was just preparing for the podcast and I was reading about adoption and the church's outlook, the Christian outlook on adoption. And somebody made a suggestion in the article I was reading. She was saying that the topic of adoption should be added when they're discussing premarital issues with children. For couples. What do you think of that? Absolutely. That's a great suggestion because, as we spoke earlier on the first episode, people getting married just go in without knowing what's on the other side. If you're going to be, in terms of having a baby, we have this expectation that everything's going to be get married, you follow through, become intimate, and things just happen. As we've seen, It doesn't always work like that. We are unaware of all the obstacles, all the things that may make parenting or becoming a parent, either biologically to a child, possible. So I think during the marriage counseling phase, it is important to explore that. all the various ways of becoming a parent so i think that is key because then if you are prepared if you know that there is a possibility that you may not have a smooth journey towards parenting becoming a parent but there are options of achieving that um that goal that goal certainly you will not be fixated or just focus on one route like okay i'm just going to try and pray and fast, not the medical route or adoption or explore other options. So that's a very good suggestion. But why do you think that, um, adoption is not talked about from the pulpit? Because I know, um, it's something that Christians do, but for some reason I haven't, let me not say it's not talked about, but I have not personally heard it being spoken about from the pulpit. Why do you think that? I haven't as well. I think it's, um, it's a combination of two things. Uh, talking from being a Christian as also our ethnicity, there is some cultural influences even in our Christian work with God. There is also those beliefs that certain things, there's expectation, like I said earlier, you get married, you get pregnant. So there is no alternative to looking to So as a preacher or as a marriage counselor or as a pastor, your initial, when you're praying for couples who are expecting, they're only praying for God to make them become pregnant. You're not praying for God to make an adoption. So it's not something they think about. And I think it's not conscious. I think there is no education in that aspect. I think our preachers need to be educated. They need to be open-minded as well. They need to know that, Our culture should not hinder us from experiencing all that God has installed for us. So I think there is ignorance. There is lack of being open in terms of the pastor or the minister being open to invite even other guests. It doesn't have to be from the pulpit. It could be a special guest or somebody with an expert in that area because the preacher... again, is not educated, doesn't know enough about the topic to then talk about it. That's true. That's a valid point. So why would he talk about adoption? I think this is where our ministers and our churches have to be open-minded to invite Christian leaders Christians who operate in that sphere. There are Christian therapists, there are Christian doctors, there are Christians who work in adoption agencies, who specialise in all of these other things that we as pastors, we know we preach salvation and all of that. But there are other people, even amongst our congregation, who we can invite to give their own expert opinion on that topic. And I think... things will start changing. But the more you talk about it, we talk about it, the message will get out. But there's also this thing from the Christian perspective that when you start considering adoption, you've lost your faith. Do you want to talk about that? Yes. There's so much we as Christians, we have stopped ourselves from experiencing because we have sort of limited ourselves what God can do into a certain... How do I put it? We put it in a box. In a box. God can only do X, Y, Z through this route. We don't know that. God does not fit in a box. God operates outside our imagination. So I think... We look at the story of Sarah. We look at the story of Elizabeth. We look at the story of Anna. They prayed and prayed and prayed. And God did it for them. They got pregnant. So we're looking at it from that aspect. God can do it for Sarah and Anna and Elizabeth. God can do it for them. I'm going to keep praying. But we forget that. Those are their own individual way of handling their own situation. Doesn't mean we have to. Certainly now from our generation and with the availability of medical advances. we shouldn't restrict ourselves to solely exploring or focusing on one route towards having a family. Because there are two ways of being a parent, either by birth or by adoption. So I also say this, your faith, doing something, if you've ever taken paracetamol or anything, you have had to trust that the manufacturer knows has gotten the ingredients right. You have had to, before we sat on this chair, we believe the chair is going to hold us. So there is an element of faith when we operate day to day. When you embark on any life-changing decision, you must apply faith. Going, looking at adoption, believing God for a baby, all involves faith. So going, look at... It's not lack of faith for... Deciding to adopt. Instead, you are actually choosing a step that God already chose for us. Because we are all adopted by God. We are not God's biological children. Jesus is his only son. And what does that make us? He said, we... have been adopted into his family by virtue of what Jesus did on the cross. Yes. I think that's in Ephesians 1.5. That's what the Bible talks about us being adopted. Yes, being adopted. And it really saddens me too when I hear Christians just, you know, often this comment like, oh, you know, she has an adopted child. You don't refer to my biological children as, oh, she has a biological child. And I was speaking to a friend, and she was just excited about her sister. And this was so innocent, a sister-in-law whose daughter was five. And we were talking about it, and she said, oh, yes, she mentioned it. Oh, my niece is going to be five. My sister's adopted child. She had to put a caveat. There's no need for that caveat. And when we spoke further, I was like, oh. Why did you say she was adopted? They said, yeah, because she is. I said, but you didn't refer to your brothers. I said, oh, yes, I know. I didn't mean it. I said, don't explain how they came about that child because it's their child. And I want to say something. Being a parent, anybody who can, can get pregnant. But not everyone can be a loving, caring, kind, God-fearing parent. Exactly. It is a choice. I think adopted children and parents who choose that would have special because even though butterflies make a decision to have a baby, which is also slightly, you could say there's similar terms of choosing to go for adoption. Adoption, you are opening yourself to interrogation. You are opening yourself to the world. You are opening yourself to the agency, certainly in this country and most countries around the world, to external influences, to the social service, to look at your finances, to look at your house. Because you want to give a home to a child, you are willing to put yourself, to open up yourself to scrutiny. It is intensely... It's not private. It's intensely... Every area of your life, your finances. I remember a friend of mine saying, even the arguments we had, the social service was kind of like trying to find out how we navigate these arguments. And how is she going to feed? The holidays they've been to. Nobody asks you that when you were trying for a baby, when you felt pregnant. So for you to choose to adopt, to take a child, and choose to love them, I think it blows my mind. Those parents deserve commendation. So I've always felt the same way up until this morning when I had a different view about it. Not that I don't think that they're special, but I read an article, and I'm going to refer to that article because I actually wrote it down. It's called Adoption Was Beautiful, Precious Life. god ordained and then i adopted and it's by a lady called christine lee and i'm gonna put a link to it in the whatever because i found it quite enlightening and she said everybody says they're special they're special parents people who adopt children are special but that puts pressure on them because it makes them feel like they're saving the child so it's like the same thing you were talking about um that person saying the adopted child yeah now it's like the parents who've Adopted children are saviors of those children, whereas that's not the case. They're just parents. Absolutely. They're just parents, and that's it. Yes, and that's... The reason I say they're special is because parenting is huge. We see today's society, young couples, they're not going to have big parents. They don't want the stress. They don't... They are choosing not to be parents because they want to travel. But for you to step out of that, when you have tried to have your own biological child, this is why I'm looking at it, if you decided, you know what, I believe I have so much love to give. You're not saving a child. You are choosing a child to love. To love, that's it. In place of your biological child, which you would have loved. And you are saying, there are so many children who lack love, who are in care home, who are in the system. I want to give. I'm not a savior. I want to share. There's so much love. And I know that was what one of my friends said. She said, I have too much love in me not to give. I just want to share the love. So it's not being, it's not the savior. You're not being a savior. You're choosing to share the love, to bring someone into your heart who you can nurture on and just share. Just be the parent that you know God has called you to be. And that's the difference between... It's not different from you and I. When you have a child, you love them unconditionally. And I have seen adoptive parents. In fact, when my friend adopted her daughter, it was just so surreal. They look exactly the same. And now, that child is just growing up. becoming like the mom every day. I don't look at her and say, oh, that's her adopted child. It doesn't even cross our minds. And when we talk, certainly, I mean, since, apart from the first year of her life, when we had to go through the dedication and all of that, she's a child. She's a child, true and true. There is no doubt. But I think we, coming from our ethnicity, you might see yourself as an adoptive, you don't see yourself as an adoptive parent, but people still do see you as that. That's it. So you need, like my friends, my colleague who referred to her niece, oh, she's adopted. She sees, she saw that child that's adopted. Even though the parents don't see it like that. Until she spoke out the word and I pulled her up on it. I discovered it was such an innocent comment. She didn't even mean it. She just felt, oh, that's true. Why did I even say that? Because even she doesn't see her like that. She doesn't treat her niece like that. She treats all her niece equally. So I think we need to change our perception as a society. Because I don't know if I have time to go through some statistics. Yeah, go on. I think in the UK there are around 38,000 and just over 38,000 young children who will enter the care system this year. And there are around 104,000 children who are looked after away from home by the care system. So they are looked after children. Wales has the higher rates of looked after children by the social care, Wales. Okay, Wales, okay. Scotland has a slightly lower percentage. If you look at these statistics, you would see that so many children are in care system and there is something to be said. There's one racial disparity I want to bring out. Black children are disproportionately represented in our care system. While black children make up 5% of the general population, they also make up 7% of the looked after children population. That's children in care and fostering. Black children are then less likely to go on to be adopted and they wait longer to find their adopted family.

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

When other factors are held constant, black children spend on average six to eight months longer in the adoption process before moving in with their adoptive parents. So we can look at, from our ethnicity and our background, there's something about that. Black children wait longer. Black children are more in the care system. Black children don't often, especially children over the age of 10 and upwards, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That needs to change. More people should consider if they are able to. Able to. Yeah. To adopt children. To adopt children. So you said something about many of them are not adopted because young ones are not adopted. I think more like the babies are the ones that are adopted more. Yeah, babies were farmed. Yeah. What would you... Why do you think that's the case? And... which one do you think is better in terms of I don't know if there's a word like better but which one do you think is preferable whether as a baby adopting a child as a baby or when the child is older so although I have not adopted myself I've read a lot on this topic and I've spoken to a few friends and also friends of friends or read people's experience I think one of the things people are looking for they want to have that experience of starting the process of into parenting with that adopted child so you could say if you adopt a baby, because you are entitled to maternity leave, you want to stay at home, you want to feed the child, you want to be up to sleep, you want to do the sleepless nights, especially if that's your first. I don't know if I want to do sleepless nights. Exactly. I just want to really experience the whole thing. If this is your first foray into parenting, some adoptive parents don't want to start being a parent from when the child is four. They want to start being a parent from as early as possible. So you find that. So there's something to be said of that. You want to have the experience from birth through early childhood to later childhood. So they want to do that. And then there is the other side of it where certainly a friend of mine who adopted, she already had a child. They already had a son. And They wanted somebody because the son was already a toddler and she was already five then and was okay. They wanted somebody that can be a sibling, that they can talk to, that can be a companion. So they adopted a three-year-old. And the three-year-old, they started a relationship when the child was born. So they started the adoption process when the child was born. So it took quite a while before the child came to join them. So you could see when the child came at three, their biological child was already new and the process just worked because then they were able to have that companionship, sibling rivalry and now in their early 20s and 18, how old are they? They've become the best of friends. So they've grown together. So that's because she has already had a son. And I know they did say they would have considered a smaller age, a younger child, if they didn't have one. So you could see that another thing that makes people want to adopt slightly younger children is the fact that children are formed from, what do they say when they're five? They are almost molded. So if you're adopting slightly older children, they're coming with their... Baggage. Yes, with everything, with their discipline, with their issues, whatever it is. And one of our mutual friends said to me, one of her boss adopted two kids because she couldn't have a child. So they went forward and then they took... These two siblings, they decided to foster first. They fostered them and then they felt they were a good fit and then they moved on to the adoption process. And that's where everything changed. These children, sadly, it didn't work out for them up to the point that... Even when she experienced violence from one of them, you know, abusive behavior towards her such that she was locking herself up in her bedroom because she felt she was going to be attacked. And sadly, that process didn't work out. They had to give up those children. So from that perspective, you could see why some people lean towards adopting younger children under the age of three or five as opposed to children over the age of a certain age what you just said reminds me of something I read as well as a couple they had two children and they felt led to adopt and then they adopted a four year old but this four year old was like a thorn in their flesh for six years and now their home that was peaceful before turned into something else and their children now started to become distraught and aggressive and everything and it was a very tough process for them and they were saying that yes God gave them the go ahead to adopt but what they're not prepared for people are not prepared for is that it is a journey adoption is a journey and it can be a tough process and it was only by the grace of God that they stuck through it and only because The pastor of their church had adopted 11 children so they could get support from there. But it's not everybody that has that. Yeah, I think that's really sad that they had to experience that for six years. I'm hoping that that resolved itself. It did resolve itself eventually. And that's because they stuck it out. Because it really breaks my heart when people return adoptive children. Because if it was your biological child, where would you send them to? Although people do give up their child. Because the reason all those children are in the care system I'm not saying it's the fault of the children. Something has gone wrong in their own nuclear home. Missing parent drugs, alcohol, mental health issues. It could be anything. It could be anything. So you could make an argument for, yes, people do return, could give up their children into the cancer, but it's not very, it's not often. I don't think, you know, I certainly don't know anyone amongst my friends who have given up their children. But you could say, What would you do? I think counseling is key. You need to seek therapy. You need to go to therapy with that child. You need to absolutely try to make it work. And I think the social care system is great. They do support children. I have a friend currently who's fostering. And bless her heart, she's fostering a child who's special needs. Because she has a special needs daughter. And she... didn't want to adopt because her daughter is quite a handful. But she felt there are so many special needs kids in care. People go to adopt children who are all together. I don't know the phrase to use. But children with special needs, nobody adopts them. So she took that step and she's in the process. And I tell you, it's incredibly difficult for her. And she said to Our sister said to me two weeks ago, she called her older sister and said she wants to return. She wants to stop fostering. But her sister was a supporter and her sister was like, you know what? I'm going to be there. We're going to do it together. You've taken this step. So her sister was able to provide that support and was able to relieve her from the day-to-day stress. challenges that she faced like taking her to the care or taking her to the playground because this the person i'm talking about the child is 16 year old girl so it's not like she adopted a 16 year old she's fostering she's fostering rather she's fostering and so my friend said to her why don't you talk to the social service to see how they can you know more support and she got help counseling she said it's so much better now because she she has a counselor they have therapy and they've uh Some of the delays in getting the diagnosis for the 16-year-old that led her into the care system has been resolved because now she has a foster parent. That girl has been in the foster home for years and nobody in the care system. This is the first time she's fostering. So she's been fostered. So she's adjusting as well. But since they started therapy, there's been a change. So I would suggest for anyone considering adoption, therapy should be something that you should consider with a child, with yourself and your spouse. And it should be an ongoing thing. Even with us, we have biological children. I know it's not something we talk about. We should have therapy or counselling sessions. Because Being a parent... It's hard. It's hard work. It's hard work. There are days when I sit down and think, oh my God, am I doing it right? What am I doing? Am I a good parent? Parenting is hard. And I think there's an extra pressure if you've adopted a child because you feel judged by everyone if that child doesn't turn out well. If I refer back to that article, the woman said she felt judged. She felt, and then she felt ashamed of herself because she thought, okay, God gave me the indication to go and adopt. I've adopted this child. Now I don't particularly like this child. I can't love this child. Like I'm loving my own natural, my biological children. So what do I do? So she now went into a stage of condemnation and feeling, until she walked herself, feeling guilty. And then she walked through that and then she came out of that and thank God everything is okay now. But there was something else I wanted to refer to. One of the articles also said that we forget that the children who are adopted themselves have trauma. They have trauma. They're coming from all sorts of things like you said earlier. Something has gone wrong in the process. And they may have witnessed something or it's just something. It's not normal for you not to be with your bad parents when they are still alive. In some cases, they are still alive when you take them on, when you adopt them. I know, certainly in the UK, you become... Legally, they are parents, but they have a bad parent, which is why now the law has changed to say slightly. When they are 18, they can have access and they can find out who their parents are. But something has gone wrong. I know certainly I was reading a story, actually, of one of the ministers. I can't remember his name now. It escaped me. I never knew he was adopted. And every time he speaks, he'll say, I heard him say this, I think, during COVID. I'm just thankful for my adoptive parents because they made me who I am. And I think he came into the home when he was 10 and he witnessed abuse. So he had a lot of trauma. And he said, oh, they did a lot. They put up with so much because I didn't want anybody to take me in. He was in the care system for a long time and then he moved into his adoptive home and he already had three children. So he just mentioned that. And I think what you said, they have trauma and that they would carry it into their relationship with you. Which is why counseling is important for those who want to adopt. And this is why they need to talk about it. Pre-marriage. Pre-marriage. And all of that. Because it is not easy to... This is a child. You are the adult. You need to be the parent to a child who already has trauma. How do you deal with it? Some of the issues are heavy. Some of the issues are deep. How do you... some of them you've never encountered this is why you need counseling you need support system you need um that's reassurance from a community of people like your friend who had that child for six years a four-year-old came into their home he's a four-year-old but he had all not my friend the article oh the article yeah exactly he came into the home And for four years, six years, they had to deal with that. But the pastors, fortunately, adopted 11, you said? Yeah. Oh, wow. 11, yeah. 11 children. I don't know. Managing two children alone is hard work. 11 children is plenty. Again, if I look at this side, I would say there are so many, with my father, my biological brothers and sisters, 11 or so, but I have so many. We call them adoptive parents because my dad took everybody in. There was no formal adoption process. Process, yes. But people just lived with you and your parents took care of them. There were so many people. People I call, my mom called grandchildren today. They are adopted brothers and sisters' children. People even come and live with my mom now or even send her messages. I called them my sisters. It was later. I said, what are they doing in our house? My dad was just welcoming everybody, eating in the same place, doing everything. So you could say, the number of children you have does not really matter. It's how much love you can give. And can you stay the course? Can you stay where you have challenges, trauma? I think it's incredibly hard where a child who's dealing with trauma You definitely need counseling. And I think they do offer it. Certainly, my very good friend, they did go through counseling for a long time. I don't know if they do now because it's been, what, how many years now? Over 10 years. I don't know if they still do. But for the first at least three to four years. There was counseling. There was counseling. I think it was every three months. You would touch base with a counselor. Yes, with the social service, they would find out, they will follow you up. They want to see if the child is settling and if you have any problems. Because what they don't want, they don't want to release that child back into the care system. Because adoptive parents would find out if they've been rejected, if they've gone and they've been returned. Nobody wants to go back and touch that child because why did you not stay? So I don't want to be the one to pick it. So social service is don't want a child and that's why they do all these checks yes and that's why they make sure so much is in place before the child becomes a part of your home and also after the follow-up process the settling in process so i would say if you're considering adoption like you should this setting is something you would be in for the long haul parenting you don't choose to be a parent you don't you do choose to be a parent but you don't choose the length of time parenting is for life and you don't choose the child you don't choose the child you don't know what kind of child even we both know we've had siblings who are oh god bless them There are some siblings. What can you do? You can disown your sibling. You can disown your... But they are still part of you. They still carry part of your DNA. You can disown your child. You're still walking around with your DNA. And I think that's where we should approach it. This is a long journey. How do I make it work? I'm going to be there. And you need support. And I think as a Christian community, we should be talking about it. We should be empowering our the couples in our church to do that because it is sad. I mean, in England alone, there are over 3,000 children in the care system, an increase of 2% from 2020. You know, these are children and this is a loving woman. You also have in 2023, only three, Just under 3,000 children were adopted. Wow, that's a very small number. Very small percentages. There is a 2% decrease from 2022. Why is there a decrease? Is there any reason behind that? They're saying that the cost of living crisis, there are so many... Ethnicity issues, you have children from the minority backgrounds who stay longer in the care system who are certainly passed over. So there's all of these things. And the waiting time, parents, people get discouraged because of the length of time it takes before you, you know, when you begin the process to when the process completes. So people just feel, you know what, I don't want to be bothered. Another thing that adoptive parents shouldn't do, because I know if somebody said this, I think it must have been a podcast. She said for a long time she didn't want to adopt. They didn't want to adopt. The husband was open to it. He was like, yes, let's go for it. I was ready. But she was hesitant. She was like, that child will be a constant reminder. to me of my inability to biologically... Exactly. That's a different... I've never heard that perspective before. Oh, yes. This is it. There are so many things that women process differently. People generally... look at situations differently she's like that child is going to constantly remind me of my inability to be a biological parent to be able to God gave what did I feel so she had to deal with that she had to process it and she's a Christian she had to look at it from another angle she had to look at it that you are you may not be a birth parent but you are no less than a birth parent if you adopt so she had to change the way she thinks she has to make peace with her body because she couldn't forgive her body for not functioning the way she expected as soon as she was meant to have the baby get pregnant. I can't remember... She had gone through a lot of miscarriages. And now you want her to go and adopt. She wasn't ready.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Mentally.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Yes, mentally. And it took a lot of therapy, a lot of mindset shift. The moment she begins to see it differently, that actually I have a lot of love to give.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

I

SPEAKER_00 35:25

am a parent, regardless of how I become a parent. Become a parent. This child deserves love and I deserve this child and I deserve to be a parent. Everything changed and changed. At the time they came on the podcast, they had adopted two children. And you hear this thing. One of my family members, I know the older sister, couldn't get pregnant for a long time. And shortly after, later, they decided to adopt. And they adopted twins, which was bizarre. They decided to adopt twin girls. And three years into the adoption, Babies, they adopted babies. Babies, yeah. She fell pregnant. Yeah, I've heard that quite often. A lot of people, they've adopted and then in the process... Yes, they fall pregnant. Then they fall pregnant and they have their own... She has three children, yeah. They have their own natural... Yeah. I was going to ask a question about... You know, you said the couple, the man was ready, she was not ready. Yeah. So if there's a couple out there and they've not been able to have children biologically... How long do you think people should wait? Is there like a time frame? I know this question seems a bit out of place kind of. Is there a time frame within which you then start to think, you know what, should I consider? I'm going to refer it back to you. I'm going to use you as an example. For those who didn't listen to the first podcast, it was... titled Painful Weight and it was talking about Debbie's infertility story and how she waited for a number of years before she had her own children so I just that's why I started thinking about that is that like a A time frame, one could say, after a certain time, maybe start considering that. It's not the same as waiting for your own biological children. It's not as if you, with your woman's body, at a certain age, you have decreasing egg and all of that, and then you're not able to produce as much egg or as much quality eggs anymore. the older you become so there is a time restriction there but with adoption there is it whenever you're ready that's why you see couples adopt while they're waiting or while they're trying they decide to become a parent and just get through with the process but certainly for us we weren't thinking along that line because I remember I started trying in my 30s so it was not something that I thought was going to go so long yes but at Towards the end of it, I started considering what would happen. Do I want to? And how would it look for us? And then we said, well, let's keep trying. And if it doesn't, we said if it doesn't, if we don't have biological children, we would consider it. We didn't know how our decision was going to be then. But as you know, we got blessed. So did you give yourself a frame, a time frame to say, oh, if within this time we don't have, then we'll consider adoption? No, we didn't give ourselves a time frame of getting adopted. pregnant of becoming parent because certainly i said i i didn't want to be becoming parent over 40 i just i just felt it was going to be too much stress on me i won't it would be too tiring because you know uh energy depletes you that we get so you could say you we didn't but you can say The same for an adoptive parent. Children are hard work. Tell me about it. It doesn't matter what age. I think hard work are different stages of parenting journey. Every stage is different. Every stage is different, but the earlier stages are really demanding stages in terms of their physical needs and emotional needs, your emotional needs and everything. So if you want to adopt... I would say consider it earlier in the process and start thinking and start, you know, researching, looking into what the life that you might, what the life with an adopted child would

SPEAKER_01 39:26

be.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Over 40s, over 50s, over 60s. Well, certainly I wouldn't be adopting over 60 because, again, it depends on the age of the child. So there is no time restriction. I think you have to work with your child. spouse in terms of what the time frame you have given your age because the younger you are the more energetic you are the more you can run with them in the playground if you are over 40 over 45 I have someone who God bless them with their first child over 50, 51 it's not the same it wasn't her first child she already had a son okay and this child came along that they've waited for okay it's not the same she says she has no energy she's basically checked out yeah but she's finding it a struggle because now she's 54 she has a four-year road there's no walk in the park so you want to think about when you are at your most energetic for you to parent and give them the best of you not when you know you are just managing with your hormones everywhere certainly from a woman's perspective but from a man's as well I don't think there is a time frame I think each couple have to critically look at their situation and decide what's best for them okay so if there's a couple out there and one wants to again referring back to your story one wants to the other one doesn't want to how do they handle that kind of situation because that's that's a difficult one because again it's about mindset isn't it it is it is I think with pregnancy and this is why they should talk about it in pre-marriage pre-marriage because you can't just realize or discover after being married for three years oh my partner is against adoption because there is a couple I know personally who the woman is would have loved to adopt but the man was against it and sadly they are in their 50s they're 55 they don't have children he was the Christian couple but perhaps if she was aware of where he was leaning of how he feels maybe they would have resolved those issues but the question of adoption came up off of the back where they couldn't have children and The man was against every form of alternative. IVF, whatever. He wasn't going to consider anything that was not the normal route, whatever that is. I think you should seek counseling. See if there is a middle ground. See if you both can have meat in the middle somewhere. And I think each couple have to explore how they will both feel if you know you cannot... live without having a child or being a parent, then I think you should seek help together so that one of you will have to move closer to the other person. And certainly, it's something that you're going to have to work through because usually from our culture, it's usually external influences that really is the reason why a lot of male folks don't want to, even our female folks, if they can bridge that gap obstacle if they can bridge that gap and say really does it matter whether I adopt or not this child I'm going to be loving this child as my own then they will be able to you know relate with the idea come closer to the idea and be able to adopt but if they don't break that barrier or that cultural barrier of seeing it as lack of faith a taboo you've adopted what have you done you don't know where the child came from Because that's where a lot of people... fall they see it as something alien to what they've always known because when we grow up we don't know if anyone who adopted who was adopted even though we know there are many children they never even said nobody said anything yeah yeah so i think for those couples they will need to seek help they will need if i you just made me remember something and i just took a quick glance at my notes because i there was a phrase i saw this morning and i thought oh and someone was describing adoption as an arrogant defiance of What does that mean? Arrogance, defiance. An arrogant defiance of God. When you choose to then adopt, because God hasn't blessed you with a child. So you then choose, okay, I'm going to adopt. Then it's an arrogant, you're being arrogant and you're arrogantly defying God's will for your life. I thought, whoa, whoa, what do you think of that? And this is us closing now. We'll come to the end. You know what? This type of messages are not helpful. Yeah. Because what is God's will for Christians for us to be loving, to be kind, to share and our sharing can be in any means financially, emotionally, to give, to open, you know, to welcome. I mean, If you cannot give of your time and yourself to take care of a child, what can you do? Because even the Bible says, do not suffer the little ones for coming unto me, for such is the kingdom of God. You're telling me that it's arrogance, God's will. How do you know God's will? God's will, we can't, like coming back to what we said in the beginning, God cannot be restricted. You cannot put God in a box. We both listened to a podcast on the lineage of Jesus. Joseph came from the David's lineage. Mary didn't, but Joseph is in Jesus' biological child. Father. Sorry, father. Right? Mary was the one who carried Jesus, but Jesus... It's still Joseph, by virtue of the fact that he was betrothed to Mary, adopted Jesus. So the Savior of the whole world is an adoptive son of his earthly dad. What are we talking about? And if you say the whole thing about salvation... none of us will qualify if you're looking at that we are arrogant what's gospel gospel is for us to be open to his leading and if he leads you in that direction then go for it but don't just give it a blanket coverage that it is against gospel because each couple have to you're not the one that's going to live with that child I can sit here and say every Christian should go and adopt a child you're not the one that will be living with that child so you're not the one that's going to take care of that child's day-to-day things. So you need to prayerfully consider that step. Even when you're married. And nothing is to say you should adopt after you've tried to have a baby. There are countless number of couples who decide they don't want their own biological and just adopt other children. And even those who have had children say, you know what, I still have a lot of love to give. I really want to bring one more child into this world. Now I'm going to adopt. I think... It's a beautiful thing to have a child. I can't say it's something I would do, but for anybody who's done it, I commend them. I think it's a really, really selfless act. Because it's easy to love your child because you can say, what am I going to do? I can't throw them away. I can't send them away. But we've discussed here, children have been returned. Because It was just too hard and they couldn't deal with it anymore. And there is a way you can return them. You didn't birth them physically so you could send them away. We should take a step back as a society and from the pulpit we shouldn't be throwing out words that have influence over other people. We should be considerate of how other people will receive it. It's not arrogant. I think it's incredibly that we use this language. I think his love is selfless to do that, to give unconditionally. Because I didn't look at my child the day I had that and said I'm only going to love you until the day you pull your nappy then

SPEAKER_01 48:03

I'm

SPEAKER_00 48:03

gone I'm gone bye yes bye how come you just peeled your meat you didn't even let me sleep no no no we're in for the long haul long haul and it doesn't matter and that's how God loved us unconditionally unconditionally it doesn't matter when you go and come God loves you regardless of whether you were adopted he loves Jesus he doesn't love you less any more than he loves Jesus any more than he loves you he loves you even more. That's why he sent his son. He said, look, I love you so much. I have to give up my throne to come and be with you and experience what you have experienced so that I can have all of you. Wow. We've fast come to the end of

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this.

SPEAKER_00 48:43

It goes so fast of today's podcast. Thank you so much, Debbie. As always, we like to end this on a Note of hope. So what would you like to say? Last words? I'd like to say thank you for having me again. It's always a pleasure to come back. Thank you for coming. Also, for anyone who's exploring options into parenting, just know that you have incredible love. You can do it. Anyone can get a child. Not everyone can be a parent. So just go for it with the guidance of your counsellors or friends, supportive groups. Go for it and prayerfully consider that step. If that's what God has laid on your heart, do it. Don't give any ear to the naysayers. Yeah. Amen. Don't give any ear to the naysayers. If God has laid that on your heart to do, like Debbie has said, prayerfully consider it and go for it. Thank you so much, Debbie. And Debbie will be back again when we talk on part two. Part two will be fostering. Fostering. Fostering or surrogacy. We'll see. Thanks, Dele. Have a good day, everyone. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Debbie. Thank you all for listening in again. It's been nice having another chat with Debbie and having you on the other side listening. Thank you so much. And hopefully it's been useful. And yeah, we'll be back again sometime soon. So take care. God bless and bye-bye.