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Embracing Compassion: Navigating End-of-Life Care with Rev Ben Cooper

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Join me in a heartfelt conversation with Rev Ben Cooper as we delve into the emotional journey of working in hospice care. Rev Ben shares his experiences of supporting individuals and their families during their final days, addressing the myriad of emotions that arise in such sensitive circumstances.

We explore the reality of death as it confronts individuals and their loved ones, and discuss the importance of providing compassionate support and comfort during this challenging time. Rev Ben offers valuable insights into the best ways to support someone in hospice, emphasizing the significance of empathy, understanding, and practical assistance.

If you or someone you know is facing the complexities of end-of-life care or seeking guidance on supporting a loved one in hospice, this episode provides invaluable advice and perspective. Subscribe now to gain insights into navigating life's most challenging moments with compassion and grace. 🌼🎙️ #EndOfLifeCare #HospiceSupport #CompassionateCare 🌈

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UNKNOWN:

you

SPEAKER_01:

Hello and welcome to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge with Tally. Today I've got Reverend Ben Cooper in the house with us and we're going to be talking about a topic that we don't hear being discussed quite often. And Reverend Ben Cooper, please introduce yourself and tell us a bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_00:

Good afternoon, Telly, and I hope you're well and you've had a good day in the name of Jesus. Yes, I have. Good afternoon or evening, wherever you are, everybody. My name's Reverend Ben Cooper and I've been a minister of this church for goodness knows how long now, quite a long time. And it's a great journey, you know. God has blessed me in the ministry. 25 years I've been all-day minister. I suppose I've been here probably... 18 years maybe also had the experience of some prison ministry that was uh really interesting um as you know got a couple of books out a couple of podcasts floating around out there and uh very lively busy church things are really really good and i've also experienced a fantastic journey in the world of palliative care as a hospice chaplain the lead chaplain there and uh i've retracted and moved away from that around about seven six months ago so yeah that is uh That was challenging, but it wasn't a challenge as you could imagine. It was just more of a calling, I would say. It was more of a calling. It sat very well in my spirit, you know, got open the door. But yeah, it was challenging. You know, we've got food ministry on the go. We've got so much stuff happening here in the church. Charity shop, you know, live streaming, Sunday services, Mondays. Oh, we've just got so much going on here, Telly, as you are very aware. Lots of things happening. Very busy. Very busy. Very busy. Very busy church. Very busy church.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Reverend Ben Cooper is one of the people, in fact, the... One of the central people supporting this podcast has been very helpful. So please say a big thank you everybody to Reverend Ben Cooper for helping us. So today we're going to be talking about hospice, hospice care, palliative care and stuff like that. Because last week I had a podcast with somebody and we were talking about grief. She had lost her father. Her brother, her mother, and her father, all within the space of 18 months, and we just discussed that. But then I thought to myself, what about people who have relatives who are at that point where they're probably on their way out and they're in the hospice? How do they deal with those situations? So before we delve into that in depth, I just wanted to ask you, why did you decide to Working in hospice.

SPEAKER_00:

How did I get into the world of the hospice? Quite interesting, actually. Obviously, being a pastor here, and I knew someone that was working in a particular place where I went to, and they said, the opportunity's come up. Do you want to have a look? And I just said, not really. I'm not really interested in it. Just not enough time. And then a little bit of time went by, and they said, you know what, the post is still open. I said, okay, I'll just fill the form in. wasn't when please don't get me wrong when i say i wasn't interested it wasn't on the radar so i wasn't really looking for it it came looking for me went there filled the form in uh got all through the process done that and you know it was like god opened the door god opened the door and when i look back now it was a very interesting very powerful uh journey experiencing walking with families or walks of life different cultures people that was experiencing life limiting illnesses all the all the things that will go on with uh death and as you said it's not a an easy subject for people to talk about but also i experienced um lockdown through there as well which was really really powerful and really mind-blowing and quite distressing and all that sort of stuff with what came along with that. But palliative care, I think that you, as a chaplain, you know that you're called to certain areas. So I knew when I got into that world of palliative care, I knew that God was calling me to walk this journey. I didn't know how long it would last. I didn't know, wasn't experienced in that whatsoever, but God just opened the door really. And yeah, it was a great journey, really powerful journey. worked with some fantastic people and such great staff, you know, a beautiful environment to work in, very interesting, met consultants from different parts of culture of life and I learned a lot about life and medicine and just general stuff regarding end times, end of life of care really. So it was a great time, lots of funerals obviously, lots of funerals, lots of emergency weddings. Yeah. lots of arranging, lots of one-to-one time with patients that are just about to cross over from this world to the next, whatever way they look at it, however they look at it. So I've experienced a lot, see a lot, cried a lot, laughed a lot, and God clearly opened that door. It was 100% a calling, whether you're in faith or out of faith, whenever you capture this podcast, there is something very interesting happening about when someone passes what happens there is something very clear to the human being that whatever way you want to describe it and I will describe it as a Christian the spirit of that person leaves that body and that body suddenly becomes a different instrument a different vessel and it looks completely different and it got to the point where I could almost hear it coming down the corridor you got Very close with it. I'd even say that death had a bit of a smell to it, a bit of a noise to it, a bit of an atmosphere to it. I worked so close with it, it became the norm. And death every day, working with death every day from children to adults, no respect of a person, sicknesses, cancers, diseases, everything like that, life-limiting illnesses, very interested in the power of death. I learned a lot about that. And I clearly have come to understand that God is in control of everything.

SPEAKER_01:

I just want to draw back on what you just said. You said there was a smell, there was kind of like a smell to it. And it makes me remember when my brother was about to pass. And tomorrow would actually make it exactly five years when my brother passed. And I remember the morning he passed, we went together. I went to see him because his wife had called me to say he wasn't okay. And the nurses who were taking care of him came in and one of them said to me, it's about time, it's almost there. And what you just said just reminded me of that, that there's something... There's something in the atmosphere. Yeah, because he'd been in that environment, he worked in that environment for so long, he knew it was coming. I didn't know what he was saying, but... And I was still believing, you know, that God will heal him. And this leads me to the question I was going to ask. As believers, we know that God can heal and God chooses to heal when he wants to heal us. But in a situation where it doesn't look, I don't know how to phrase this question, but forgive me if I'm phrasing it wrongly, but in a situation where it looks like God is not healing that person, you know, and the person is definitely on the last leg. What should we as Christians do? If you have a family member who has been told to go into the hospice or is in the hospice, how do you handle that as a Christian? Because I think it's very difficult. It was difficult because my brother was asked to go into the hospice and he refused to. He chose to die at home. But for people who have family members in that position, How do they handle it as Christians?

SPEAKER_00:

The first thing is we talk about healing. So I spent six, six and a half maybe years in that environment and I didn't see one healing. I didn't see one healing. So this is really, really important. I believe in healing. I believe in miracles. I believe in the power of God's grace, his mercy, his love. And I believe, without any shadow of a doubt, miracles. So in the world of healing, It really opened my eyes to the falseness within certain areas of ministry, life, that a lot of the stuff that we see, TVs, all this sort of stuff, isn't real. And the reason this needs to be said is because when someone is a believer, straight away they think God's going to heal, God's going to heal, God's going to heal, God's going to heal, but the greatest healing any one of us has ever had we've all had this, is salvation. There's no other greater miracle than the work and the saving grace of the Eternal Father for redemption. And then we say to ourselves, and I've had this question put to me a thousand times, is God going to heal me? Is God going to heal me? I don't know. I just don't know the answer to that. And then people say, why hasn't God healed me? And the question is, we don't know. The answer is we don't know. We haven't got a clue how and why God heals and why he doesn't heal. I've seen uncountable Christians die of cancer, heart disease, everything. But there are churches out there jumping up and down that there is healings taking place at every service, at every second and every moment. It's very important that we get this understanding. God does heal. God gives life and he takes life. So I spent all them years there thinking, And I didn't see one healing. I buried babies, mums, dads, aunts, uncles, all the way through every culture, everything. But one thing I learned, there was a church not too far from where I was the chaplain. And they was naming and claiming that there was healings breaking out everywhere in this church. Less than four miles away. So I would go there, sit in a church, sit in the environment, and I would listen to everything that was going on. And suddenly you realise that what have they got that the hospice hasn't got? Why is there healings here and there's not healings just up the road? Simply because God wasn't even healing in that church. There's a false environment. So Christians need to be very aware that just because you hear it and see it on the screens and all that around... doesn't mean to say that it's true. So I spent a long time studying the world of healing because it was frustrating me because Christians were dying. We do

SPEAKER_01:

have a few that have been documented though.

SPEAKER_00:

Without a doubt. Without a doubt. There are healings and healings take place. We can't get away from that fact. But one thing's for sure, I didn't see one healing in the amount of people that passed through the doors of where I worked. All ages, all shapes, sizes, wherever from whatever. But one thing I learned is the most powerful thing on the earth is redemption and healing in the heart, in the heart of somebody.

SPEAKER_02:

So

SPEAKER_00:

the body is secondary. I know we all want to live forever almost to that degree. So when people are, and people may be listening out there thinking, well, I've got this life-limiting illness and why is this happening to me? I think we need to just lean into Jesus and just say, okay, Lord, if I'm going to be healed, I'm going to be healed. If I'm not healed, I'm not healed. But there are too much and there is too much pressure on believers to think that God is going to heal when you just have to take one moment. Life is so precious. So healing is a massive subject. Why is he healed? Why isn't he healed? When's he going to heal? Is he going to heal? And certain people from that church came up to us and they was on the prayer teams. They was on this team and that team. Suddenly they got a life limiting illness and suddenly they died of the illness that they've been praying for others for. And I have many conversations with them saying, why has or why does it look like God might have healed Mr. or Mrs. A, but I've been on the prayer team and God hasn't healed me. There is no way to answer that. But what we need to be careful of is that fake, name it and claim it. God does heal. Christians do die. Children do die. We are living in a fallen state. So how do we cope with an illness that could take me off the earth, but my faith is extremely strong? You know, the Bible says three score years and ten, and it talks very much about healing. But Jesus... walked by many people that didn't get healing it's a very it's a very difficult subject to grasp because there is so much in the christian world of god is healing over here here here here and and everywhere but in when the cameras go off and the lights fade and you're on your own and there's no healing coming you've got to be careful it doesn't rock your faith with jesus If you are a Christian out there and you've got a life-limiting illness, you've really got to just lean into Christ. If it's his will to heal, we will. If it's not, it won't. But healing is secondary. So trying to answer and put this question into some form of area of complete understanding, I don't know why people die. that are good, solid Christians of awful diseases. But what I do know is that there's something that needs to be addressed. Rather than praying for the healing, coming not to the acceptance, and you've got to be careful here, not saying, okay, this disease is taking me out, but getting a person to be peaceful. Because I've seen a lot of Christians go out of the world saying, in turmoil and stress because God hasn't healed. And there are many churches and ministries out there are shouting, you are going to be healed, you're going to be healed, you're going to be healed, you're going to be healed. And that person goes home and it doesn't get the healing. And then frustration and fear kicks in. Is it because my faith is weak? Is it because I'm a sinner? Is it because, is it because, is it because? What churches and ministers and areas of this life-limiting illness need to address is to get peace. Because when you get peace, it changes everything. So the answer, I'm trying to bring some form of a conclusion to what you're asking me, is that I learned after about a year to lead people to a place of peace and calmness and stillness. Okay. Because there's nothing worse than leaving this earth with spiritual agitation. Clinically, that's recognized, you know, So when people are on lots of pharmaceuticals at life-limiting illnesses at the end of life, consultants in the world of medicine recognize that there is this place called spiritual agitation. And then they bring in the chaplains, and then I have seen miracles as in not the healing, but the person not accepting... the disease, got to be careful because you know what we're saying. But realising, hang on, this is my journey. So when you can get someone to get in that position of peace, look, when Christ stepped in the room for Thomas, he said, peace be with you. Peace is a healer. Peace gives you long life. Peace changes everything. So when you deal with fear, that's the work of the enemy. So when you can get a believer, a non-believer, Whether you're in faith or out of faith, I've seen it so many times. It's not about going to church. It's about getting the internal workings of the person resting in a place of peace. So regarding healing, what peace does, peace brings more time on the earth. Fear takes you out quick. Fear changes everything. So if you are experiencing at this moment in time, you know, loved ones, families and friends, You've got to be careful that you're not giving someone false hope. It's a very difficult thing trying to word, but false hope is very dangerous. And this is not saying that Jesus isn't a healer. This is saying Christ recognised through the scripture that fear made people focus on the wrong things. If you can get someone to focus on Jesus, on redemption... Okay. Okay. To peace.

SPEAKER_01:

To peace, okay. And you just said something about when you're supporting somebody who's in the hospice and about to die, making sure that you bring peace to them. So that brings me to the next question I was going to ask. How do you support them practically? Yes, I understand bringing peace to them, but can you explain that in practical terms? How would somebody do that for somebody who's about to die? And the reason I ask this is, I'm going to relate it back to my brother as well, because... A few weeks before he passed, my husband and I went to visit. And he was, I guess maybe he must have been in the state of agitation that you were talking about. And he was asking, what's the point of my life? And that question stumped us because he was a much-loved person. I mean, he was such a wonderful young man. So for him to then be at that point asking, what's the point of my life, you

SPEAKER_02:

know?

SPEAKER_01:

So... We didn't know how to react. And whatever we said didn't make much difference because he just closed his eyes and pretended he was sleeping and that was it. So in practical terms, what could people do?

SPEAKER_00:

Okay, so people or a chaplain and whatever you may think of this at this moment in time, It's about being the listening ear. So whether you're the chaplain, whether you're the family member, whether you're the nurse, the doctor, the consultant, whoever it is, what you find is that the biggest practical help that anyone could have is knowing that someone is sitting next to them, walking with them on this journey of the unknown, of when's death going to enter in the arena of my life. So the only way that you could really look at this is literally... being the listening ear and being the practical guide, as in talking about people's life, asking them simple questions.

SPEAKER_01:

Like?

SPEAKER_00:

You know, unforgiveness. So unforgiveness. So when you look at the end of the life of someone, a lot of people carry unforgiveness. Okay. Unforgiveness brings agitation. Unforgiveness... brings bitterness and fears and doubt. When you deal with unforgiveness, it changes a person as well. So when you're talking about practical, when someone's laying in the bed, there is no practical help you can bring.

SPEAKER_02:

So

SPEAKER_00:

it's not like going and taking someone shopping and go, I'm going to give you some practical help today. I'm going to carry your bags to the car. There is no practical help. So we have to rephrase that and use the terminology of practical. How can I walk with you in this journey of the unknown? So a family member, chaplain, whoever you may be, you've got your best friend, you've got your mum, your dad, your brother, your sister, husband and wife lying there. The best practical, rephrase that, the best help you can be, the best, rephrase that, way that you can journey with people is literally hold their hand, sit in the stillness. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They're swimming in the lovely blue sea of life. And Jesus, everything's great and wonderful. Money's coming in the door. I'm working. Everything's good. It's Friday. I love you, Jesus. But when you're swimming in a dark river and you're swimming against the tide of life, Christianity looks very, very different because straight away you're saying, God, where are you? Why me, Lord? Why

SPEAKER_02:

me?

SPEAKER_00:

And then you get surrounded by Christian families and friends that they don't know how to deal with death because they're You know, Christ made it very clear about death, that we will all die. But he died the greatest death anyone could ever have. So even in the Garden of Eden, God said very clearly to Adam, if you take of that tree, you're going to die. So death is upon every one of us. But thanks be to God that, you know, death... is gain according to the word of God. Life begins when this earth suit proves its last. So the biggest help that you could ever be and the biggest remedy and the biggest practical help, however you need to understand that, what Telly's asking, is literally be the listening ear and just walk with them and walk their walk. don't try and get someone that's that's at the end of life trying to walk very differently don't start jumping up and down and naming it and claiming it because that's that is the wrong thing to do so when you pray for someone you just say lord i pray that peace will enter into their life and you be that that gentle listening ear you know you just gently talk to people there is no way of a practicality move when someone can't move they can't walk they they They're literally just completely at this end of life and they're literally almost gasping for air at certain points. They can't even move properly. They're in pain. They're suffering. It's a very difficult thing to watch and a very difficult thing to journey with your loved one. at this very powerful and brutal time of life, especially when your faith is strong and you've been together all your lives and all that sort of stuff, and it's your church friend or pastor's laying there and you're riddled with all this stuff going on. Death is very difficult to grasp. It's the end, but it's the beginning for the person. And the greatest pain is for those that have been left behind because of the unknown pain But known. So just answering that question, Telly, practically it's literally journeying with people, walking with people, being there, being the listening ear, just trying to read the spiritual atmosphere, not looking at the practical but looking beyond the practical because the physicality is secondary to why we're here because the spiritual world has always been. God said, let there be light. So creation came out. the spiritual world and we go back to the spiritual world even though we carry the father son the holy spirit within us so when we look at this this is a this is a spiritual journey and not a journey of flesh you know it's quite interesting death when you look at it but there is no there is no textbook there is no answer out there nobody knows why did they die of that And why didn't God heal? The questions of why. So the greatest thing that anyone can ever do with someone at the end of life is be the listening ear, is be the peacemaker, and look at driving out any areas of fear and getting the patient to feel rested, to find peace. Enormous subject, Telly, enormous.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay. So it's basically about just walking with them, just holding their hands, just being there

SPEAKER_00:

for them. Just being, just literally being, just being there and being still. But you find a lot of people will try and talk as if everything's normal. Yeah, because there's a loss. Because of the fear.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, they don't know what to do. They

SPEAKER_00:

don't know what to talk about. Oh, it's raining now. Oh, the weather's good. You know, the milking's been today. That's great. That's fine. That's all okay. And I understand why people react like that. Because it's a very difficult conversation.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. So, but, okay. So that's dealing with the person. What about, okay, so that's dealing with the patient. What about you, yourself, going through that? How do you... Keep yourself sane. That's the word. Because I'm just wondering, you had to be in there for quite a while and you saw different, you said countless numbers of people. Countless. How did that make you feel? Because I just couldn't imagine it. So how do you deal with your faith and your own feelings, your emotions?

SPEAKER_00:

Dealing with children to adults, there's only one answer and the answer is you've got to be called to it. Because if you're not called to it, it's like any ministry.

SPEAKER_01:

But

SPEAKER_00:

working in the area of death is different to working in the area of pastoring a local church. Because at death, you realise that life is so fragile that any second, at any moment, life could end. So I've come to a realisation that this life is so short, it's ridiculous. And the human being is so fragile. So when we talk about calling... There are many people that are in ministries that are just hired hands. So when you look at the scripture, there are many ministers, you know, please forgive me, church world, many ministers that are self-propelled and self-promoted and self-placed. The only reason that you know that you are called is when you are thrusted into the front line of where I was. Because if I wasn't called... Within a week, I would have been out the door. Because you cannot carry the weight of death, of life, of sicknesses, diseases, parents that are losing children, screams that you would never hear from parents, conversations that you'd never have from pulpits. Church ministry and end-of-life ministry are so far apart. It's unbelievable. So regarding church ministry... is quite soft and gentle when you go into the area of death even into military war zones and you're seeing the blunt end and the last stretches of life it really makes you look at God at faith at who you are And you have to know that you are called. So the reason I spoke very quickly about hired hands, there are many hired hands, please forgive me for saying this, many hired hands in the world of church and religion. A hired hand in the word of God, when you look at Jess and David, obviously King David and his dad Jess, they had an enormous business regarding shepherding. So when they was in trouble, they would hire someone in. It's called a hired hand. They look like a shepherd. They walk like a shepherd. They smell like a shepherd. But a shepherd doesn't get paid. A shepherd is called. So there are certain areas of ministry that you can swerve for a long time, but you will hit points when you will know that if you burn out or something happens, it could be self-propelled. So how did I survive those years? I grew in those years. I became the healthiest Christian I've ever been in those years. I became healthy in my body like I've never been in them six or seven years. I became stronger in my faith when death was staring me down the face all day, every day and everything. But The reason I made it, not because of me, because it was a season when I recognized that this is a call from God. So I would go from bedroom to bedroom, family to family, from young, old, this culture, that culture, dealing with different people's emotions. And you can't do ministry on adrenaline and feelings. You can do that in a certain area of localized ministry, but But there are certain ministries, and I think that chaplaincy in the world of palliative care sharpens you and makes you aware if you're cold or not. So the reason that I'm here today, fully sane, fully okay, and survived the brutality of more deaths than I can count, more funerals than I can count, more parents losing children than I can count, more just... The brutality of lockdown and one after the other, funeral after funeral, death after death, is because God called me for such a time as this. And we have to realise, as believers, there are seasons that we can walk in

SPEAKER_02:

and

SPEAKER_00:

seasons when we've got to walk away.

SPEAKER_02:

So

SPEAKER_00:

the reason that I was able to deal with that is not because of me, but because of him. So the easiest answer that I can give you is, god was with me

SPEAKER_01:

god was with you and so for anybody out there who's going through this who has a loved one they need like you said you said you you were healthy you kept yourself healthy yeah your faith grew so they need to actually walk on their faith themselves and not allow what's going on with the loved one to affect them is that what you're saying and just

SPEAKER_00:

yeah it's very it's very very difficult to to try and bring this to a it's difficult to talk about because it's It's more difficult to talk about when you're not in the environment. So when you're in that environment, you have to dig into the Word of God. And as for a non-believer, I've seen people just break. I've seen Christians break under that pressure of death. I've seen non-believers from different faiths. I've seen all walks of life just crack under the stress of death is at the door. So the church doesn't talk about death. So the church doesn't prepare people.

SPEAKER_01:

People,

SPEAKER_00:

us as churchgoers, for what happens next when I die. What happens if I get ill? What happens if I get these diseases? Because the church is just jumping up and down and telling you you're blessed and highly favoured. That is true. But the church needs to tell people that we are going to leave this earth. You look at some of the great ministers. Look at Billy Graham. You know, look how, what took him off the earth. You know, he died of a real, quite a brutal illness. Many ministers die of brutal illnesses. But we've got to be careful as Christians that we don't get caught in this holy, fake, name it and claim it bubble, if you can grasp what I'm saying. But actually say, Lord, when my time comes, will you start preparing me now? Will you, Lord, will you speak to me? Let me know everything's okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, will you, and so many Christians were in churches that the church would almost shun them as well because the church don't know how to deal with it. You know, I remember this one story of this one person that was going to one of the localised churches and she said, I stopped going to church. I said, why? She said, I had to stop going to church because every time I was wheeled into the church, I become... prayer fodder

SPEAKER_02:

oh

SPEAKER_00:

everyone wants to gather around for me and telling me god's healing me god's healing me god's healing i've got to work there's nothing more dangerous than someone going mr and mrs smith god's given me a word and tonight at seven o'clock you're going to be healed in the name of jesus and the healing doesn't come

SPEAKER_01:

that's so heartbreaking

SPEAKER_00:

that's heartbreaking but that's the reality of a lot of area of church so this lady stopped going to church because All she wanted to do was go to church, not talk about what she had, but people would come up to her and say, I've got a word for you, I've got this for you. And she would go home knowing it isn't a word. So the church has to learn a lot about death. So when people are in church that are not able-bodied, unwell, whatever it may be, just don't talk crazy. Yes, God heals. God heals without Christians praying. God does miracles without the church. What people need...

SPEAKER_01:

It's not about our prayers, really.

SPEAKER_00:

It's not about it, Telly. No, no, no, no. It's about... So when people walk into church and they're in church that are in life-limiting illness and you're around people, don't think that you've got to keep praying. What people need and what the scripture talks about is show people love and kindness. There's nothing more powerful in the world of palliative care of when someone's got this life-limiting illness. It's for someone not even to pray for them. That is the oddest thing that you could probably say a minister would say. Don't pray for them. Just talk to me and treat me as you would normally. Because I'm in their hands constantly. Of the Lord.

SPEAKER_02:

And

SPEAKER_00:

I'm not saying to stop praying for people. What I'm saying is to be very careful how you pray.

SPEAKER_02:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

Because when you have a prophetic word for someone, when you have a healing word, God has said, that puts God in a position that we have put him in. Right? So when you say, I've got a word from God and God doesn't show up, The person that has received the word has gone, God don't love me.

SPEAKER_01:

But you probably didn't get a word, or maybe the person didn't believe. It could work two ways. It's either you didn't get a word, or maybe the person didn't have the faith enough to believe. It could work both ways.

SPEAKER_00:

It could work both ways, but the biggest thing that we have in the world of church is that it's not the faith of the person. It literally is in the hands of the merciful God. So the church needs to be educated, educated, in how to deal with everybody within the church community of, okay, we've got a brother or sister here that there is a life-limiting illness, but none of us know. Just because we're walking without any assistance doesn't mean to say that we're going to live as long as the person may be in a wheelchair or whatever that may be. The church needs to be educated in how to deal with end-of-life preparation from crossing from the physical to the spiritual. So it's interesting to see that so many churches jump straight into healing, healing, healing, healing, when actually all that person wants is, yeah, let's go to church today. Let's go and worship. Let's go and see what God's doing. Let's just have a cup of tea. Let's just talk. What's the scripture saying? What's the sermon about?

SPEAKER_02:

You

SPEAKER_00:

know, God will heal if God's going to heal. God will keep you if God's going to keep you. God will take you. And all of us are in the Lord's hands. So I'm afraid to say that many people, believers, are so fearful of dying because we're in a westernized culture of either God's going to heal you or God's going to make you a millionaire. You know, they're the biggest, or the prophetic ministry, and the prophetic, so the three areas, the three areas that are dangerous to the church is the prophetic, the cash side of it, the prosperity and the healing. So when the healing don't come, God gets the blame. When the money doesn't show up, God gets the blame. When the prophetic word doesn't show up, God gets the blame. When actually it is, Lord, what are you saying to me in my life at this moment, Lord? Why am I unwell? I don't know. Are you going to show me through the word? So the greatest advice anyone can ever give a believer, as we are talking in this moment, is to say, just sink yourself in the scripture. God will show you. And feed on

SPEAKER_01:

the word.

SPEAKER_00:

And feed on the word because, you know, the Bible is very clear. You know, man does not live on bread alone, but by every word that perceives out of the mouth of God. Healing comes through the word.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So you don't need the human being to pray for you. What you need is the word in your spirit. So when you get the word in your spirit, when you start praying yourself, when you start saying, Lord, I believe I'm healed. There is something so powerful about the human being. This is not about accepting the life-limiting illness. This is about the realization that God is an eternal God and his word is yes and amen. But through his word, you'll be surprised, Telly, how many people within the world of Christianity don't get in the word at the end of life because the church hasn't taught them to get in the word at the beginning of church.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

So the church hasn't prepared people for death. I know that sounds strange. But if you are steadfast in the word and you keep going in the word, yeah, of course you're going to have wobbles at the end of life. Who's not? But if you are in the scripture and the scripture is in you, you can face all things. Just believe. There is power in the individual believing. So if you can get a believer to rest in peace... It changes the focus. It changes the understanding. It changes

SPEAKER_01:

the focus.

SPEAKER_00:

So the key to all this stuff is keeping the scripture.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

In the scripture, the Psalms, the word of God, believing and just calling God into the arena of your life and making God accountable to his word. I'm afraid to say as well in this world of death, I see a lot of Christians and Christian ministries having the weight put on them. So it's what the... the latest book is out in america or where is around the world on healing we'll read that but we won't read the word and you find the book is all about the man and the ministry and not about the king above all kings the greatest medicine pharmaceutical you know the greatest way that we could ever live our lives is literally in the word of faith you know the word heals the word sets the captives free the word opens doors the word brings peace the word is healing That is what we cannot get away from. The word will heal. But when we talk about healing, what is actually healing? What is healing? We automatically think that if I've got one eye and I walk into a church, that if I get an eye, that's healing. That's physical. Healing is within. Healing is within. We've been able to cope whether... Whether I'm going to get through this financial pressure or whether I'm going to live or whatever, healing is peace. If you can get peace, you are healed. If you've got fear, you're in trouble because fear will change your perspective on Christ so that the greatest healing anyone could ever get is not the physical,

SPEAKER_02:

it's

SPEAKER_00:

the peace within.

SPEAKER_02:

Peace

SPEAKER_00:

is the key, is the way forward. Peace is very powerful. You'd be absolutely shocked how peace can battle any illness and sickness and disease because Christ is peace. Christ is hope. The word of God is the weapon for warfare, for pulling down strongholds, sicknesses and diseases. But we have got this culture within the Western church that it's– don't get me wrong, please– The prayer team, the pastors, the leadership team, this team, that team. And we bypass so much of the scripture. The greatest way that anyone could ever bring someone to a form of healing or a form of rest is say, let's get in the word. It's the word of God. I tell you, I haven't seen one healing. But what I have seen is beyond healing.

UNKNOWN:

Healing.

SPEAKER_00:

Someone crossing over from the physical to the spiritual, accepting that there is more to this life and accepting that there is a new hope, that there is a new beginning. There's nothing worse than going out of this world in fear.

SPEAKER_01:

That brings me to my next question as we slowly come to the end of this session, this podcast. Are there any inspiring stories of faith and salvation you could share with us?

SPEAKER_00:

Oh gosh, there's loads.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Share a few with us.

SPEAKER_00:

There are loads. You know, a certain place in Palette de Care where I was working, a certain gentleman came into the hospice ridiculing me, blah, blah, blah. You know, all the usual stuff. Complete atheist, complete devil worshipper. The company that he owned, which was really, really interesting, was to do with taxes and his taxi was so... So chuffed to tell me this. His number plate was 666.

SPEAKER_01:

Whoa.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, I've dealt with witches. I've dealt with witchcraft in there. I have dealt with atheists beyond every level. Right, okay. So bringing this to a quick understanding because it's a normal story. So he loved telling me that God don't exist. He loved it. He loved it. He loved it. He loved it. Nothing happens after death. I've had it all, all shapes, sizes, every which way you can possibly deliver it. I just would wait. How are you today? Yeah, all right. Yeah, I'm all right, Rev. Blah, blah, blah. Laughing and joking. But what you find, Ellie, is that when someone is in that place and they don't really bring to their own understanding that actually this death is coming down my path, at first it's a bit of a game. Oh, yeah, it's okay. Yeah, the docs are going to look after me, this and that. So bringing this to a bit of an understanding. So three weeks go by. suddenly gets delivered this news that you might not have seven days. Oh,

SPEAKER_02:

wow.

SPEAKER_00:

Suddenly, and I've seen this in every faith under the sun, it doesn't matter what God you think you are serving from every faith, when it comes to the human being reaching the gateway of their own mortality itself, It doesn't matter if you're the biggest imam. It doesn't matter if you're the biggest atheist in the world. I will tell you this loud and clear. When death is staring you down the face, suddenly human beings say, what is going to happen to me? I have seen people switch over from every religion over the sun, you could call it, the 11th hour ministry, the 11th hour salvation, like the faith on the cross. They've lived their lives. They've done everything. They've been in this faith, that faith. They've been witches, wizards. I've had absolutely every scenario under the sun. But when death is looking at you and you know that that death is ticking the clock, the doctors can't help, family can't help, You might be the richest person on the planet. You know that by the end of the week, you could be dead. Something happens to the human being that God, the only God, the God of Israel, the human being suddenly gets to a point in its life where the faith that they've been following doesn't cut it because it's not spiritual. They think it's spiritual, But the only way that it's spiritual is because it's coming from another force. And there comes a point when that other force backs away and walks away because it can't cope with death. So what you have is the human being from whatever walk, whatever culture, suddenly the realization that by Saturday morning, the world might be waking up, but I won't be here.

UNKNOWN:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

So this gentleman that I'm talking about, biggest atheist I ever met in my life, giving me everything under the sun. Suddenly he's delivered some news. Suddenly he calls for me.

SPEAKER_02:

All

SPEAKER_00:

right, Rev. All right, how are you going? Tell me. Tell me about your Jesus. I'll tell you the end of the story because I won't go into the depth of it. Five days later, I give him a Bible. The same day I give him a cross. The same day he says to me, I want to be a believer. I want to know this Jesus. We pray. It wasn't my prayer that brought him to salvation. It was God telling him. Because there is no prayer, and there is no prayer according to man that will get a person saved.

UNKNOWN:

No.

SPEAKER_00:

We are instruments used, but it is God that gives the gift of salvation. So this gentleman that I'm referring to, and this has happened more times than I can count. So when we talk about healing, I've not seen one healing, but I've seen more salvations at death than I can count. This man, suddenly his eyes became alive. He lived in Christ on the earth. For seven hours. But then he crossed to eternity.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow.

SPEAKER_00:

I didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_01:

Within seven hours.

SPEAKER_00:

Within seven hours. He had

SPEAKER_01:

hope.

SPEAKER_00:

His life, he lived for many years on this earth, dead. He thought he was alive. He only lived seven hours on this earth with Jesus. And he became alive. It wasn't me. It's not the prayer. It's according to the word that the gift of self. Yes, we are instruments and God uses as instruments to, to, to show the world through the physical realms that what, what the callings are. So I have seen uncountable healings, but not in the way of healings as in body parts being renewed, pancreas is being healed, livers being healed. All the diseases under the sun still stayed with the person, but they got the miracle. They crossed.

SPEAKER_01:

Onto the other side with salvation.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. So that is uncountable. The stories are as long as you can count. I've experienced so much. So suddenly I realised that healing isn't it. What is, is salvation. Because that person is going to cross this line. You know, I, I said I smelled it. I could see it. I was hand in hand with it. I walk people from hell to heaven. You ain't going to get a better healing than that. The person and the realization, people would rather, when they realize, I would rather be saved and go to heaven, or what's the option? Live another 10 years being healed and go to hell.

UNKNOWN:

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00:

So healing is a long way down the list, believe it or not. What is up the list is what is next. The crossover from death to life. From death to life on the earth, and then suddenly crossing, we realize that this life is death, but now I'm crossing. So people have a couple of stages. So they don't have a belief... And then suddenly they cross from death in the body, from death to life following Christ. Then suddenly you realize that I am born again, but this life and this body is dead unto the flesh. And then suddenly the real life begins when I cross over into the spiritual realms, walking the streets of gold. So yes, if you want to label it like this, you could label it like this. I've seen many healings from hell to heaven.

UNKNOWN:

Okay.

SPEAKER_00:

I've not seen physical healings, not one, not one, not one, not one, but I know God heals. I know God heals. The greatest miracle any human being will have is the gift of salvation. You can't, there's nothing finer than seeing someone's eyes change, seeing life beating in their heart, hearing their voice change, suddenly the realisation of, I'm going to meet Jesus as a Bible-believing believer. So death is no respecter of person.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. We could never exhaust this topic in one hour. It's a very, very, very big one to take on. But I believe that by the grace of God, what needed to be said today has been said and that it will bless people. Just before we go, do you have any words of... encouragement for the listeners just before we end this

SPEAKER_00:

I suppose just thinking quietly over this if you are experiencing end of life and you've got this sentence over your natural body the greatest thing that you can ever do is literally step aside from the crowd or family and life and people and get yourself the word of God and just open the Bible up And just say, God, I need your peace. If you're a family member caring for someone, it's the same drumbeat. Get the Bible and ask God for peace. Because peace is the healer. Peace is the guide. The word of God is the way forward. The doctors, you know, amazing. I've worked with some absolutely so gifted and beautiful people over the years that are just so skilled. But when it comes to the wire... It comes down to the word. So the greatest advice anyone could ever give anybody, whether it's You're healed or you're not healed. It's just keeping the word of God. That's all you can do. And strengthen your faith. Strengthen yourself in the Lord. Strengthen yourself. And that applies to every area of life, whether you're in hospital, whether you're in hospice, whether you're fit, whether you're well, whether you're a business owner, whether you're an employee. Whatever you do as a Christian is strengthen yourself in the Lord. And how do we do that? The Bible says faith comes from hearing the message and the message is heard through the word of God. So it is the message that brings healing. It is the message that brings hope. It is the message that prepares us for eternity. It is the message that prepares us for now,

SPEAKER_02:

for

SPEAKER_00:

the physical and the spiritual realm. It is the word of God that will get you to your destiny. It's that simple. Keep in the word.

SPEAKER_01:

Wow. Thank you so, so much for your time. I really, really, really appreciate your time. Thank you for coming in today. And yeah, what else can I say? God bless. Just keep on, just hold on to the word. Yeah, because that's all we have, the word. Thank you so much. God bless you. Thank you all for listening to Navigating the Chapters of Challenge today. I hope that this has been useful to you in one way or the other and I hope that you've been blessed I hope to see you again sometime soon take care, God bless thank you